Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 16999]

Even after several Labour MPs have said that if they were in power they would talk to the EU about the deal, put it to a 2nd referendum and then vote against that deal? So it appears that this week's plan from Labour is to negotiate a deal with the EU and reject that deal in favour of remaining. But it will all be OK as they will have changed that position by next week and Baldrick Corbyn will have a whole new cunning plan.

This came up last week, doing their job for the good of the Country and personal reasons can easily be 2 different things, no different to what TM was expected to do by all those who voted her in as leader.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why should I believe any of them. Why believe Rudd and not Johnson? Her criticism seemed to be that 80/90% of the efforts were going in to No Deal preparation. The government has been slated for not preparing for no deal previously and now is getting slated for preparing for no deal. It was just my feeling of what would have happened. I think with the threat of No Deal on the table the EU would have made some minor adjustments to the agreement that would have enabled it to get through the HOCs. It wouldn't have been enough to please the extremes on either side but could well have been enough to get a majority. Just my opinion and nothing to do with government spin.

Johnson is a known liar, he has form, he’s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

And why are the Remainers believing everything the EU clowns are saying and not our own representatives???? Who says the EU don't lie?

Which remainers are those? The ones who give bad credit card advice?

 

[SocketRocket]

Brexit on NI by a staunch Brexit Voter (ex). Peter Oborne - Daily Mail chief political columnist/commentator in Bessbrook. Let's not forget as too many seem willing and able to do.

More exaggerated nonsense. There will be no hard border and what exactly has it got to do with the way terrorists operated in NI. If terrorists start shooting people its nothing to do with Custom arrangements its because of evil murderous people venting their ignorant dogma

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him don’t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesn’t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TM’s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and it’s us who have stood still, not them.

The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?

 

[ColchesterFC]

Johnson is a known liar, he has form, he’s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.

Amber Rudd lied to Commons Home Affairs Select Committee about immigration targets for removals. Yes she resigned rather than being sacked but presumably would have been sacked if she hadn't.

As for his brother, there are several stories about pressure being brought on him by his wife, who just happens to be a left-wing remain supporter, that it was either her or Boris. He chose her.

As I said previously, why believe any of them? You using Amber Rudd's resignation as a stick to beat Boris and call him a liar is a bit one sided when she is also a proven liar.

 

[SocketRocket]

The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?

I agree with all of that however its obvious that many want nothing but Remain and will use any means to obtain it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Amber Rudd lied to Commons Home Affairs Select Committee about immigration targets for removals. Yes she resigned rather than being sacked but presumably would have been sacked if she hadn't.

As for his brother, there are several stories about pressure being brought on him by his wife, who just happens to be a left-wing remain supporter, that it was either her or Boris. He chose her.

As I said previously, why believe any of them? You using Amber Rudd's resignation as a stick to beat Boris and call him a liar is a bit one sided when she is also a proven liar.

Amber Rudd is merely the latest example, seems to me people are happy to ignore the PM’s past to the possible detriment of this Country.

 

[SocketRocket]

Johnson is a known liar, he has form, he’s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.

This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?

He also backed TM’s deal, no trust in him whatsoever, his priority is him and his mates and like you say, he’s determined to take us out without a deal, something he stated he didn’t want during the referendum and he has not explained how it would be better for the Country, all we keep hearing is how he doesn’t want it, it’s a bargaining chip, what’s his fallback if they call his bluff? Blame them?

 

[Foxholer]

Just take a look back at the dishonesty on an 'industrial' scale of exaggerated claims made by the likes of Cameron, Osborne and Carney before the referendum, these were eye watering BS.

I have! IMO, nowhere near the level of Leave (and their media fans). I totally agree with Prof Dougan's descriptions of Leave campaign 'industrial scale dishonesty' and Remain's 'haven't exactly covered themselves in glory'.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.

From the man who keeps calling remainers losers, advice from you? No thanks.

 

[Foxholer]

This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.

I'm afraid BoJo has been a/the major cause of that! For the very reason that he has simply been caught telling porkies so often! Gove, on the other hand, simply doesn't tell the whole truth - an approach that is, imo, quite reasonable/to be expected, though it still doesn't stop me detesting him almost as much!

 

[drdel]

The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?

You stated "The priority for Boris is to leave."

If my memory serves me right that's exactly what the main parties promised before the referendum and after the 'leave' vote result and MPs sanctioned Art50 by a very large majority; so I'm not sure it's fair to personalise it and paint it as solely a Boris decision.

 

[Foxholer]

...My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October. The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.

I don't believe any truly better deal would have resulted.

The threat of No Deal still exists!

 

[Beezerk]

Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him don’t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesn’t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TM’s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and it’s us who have stood still, not them.

I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.

 

[Foxholer]

I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.

Likewise!

That's why I believe 'No Deal by Default' is the only possible outcome that follows the Referendum result.

And, much as I detest Bojo for other things, I believe that's what he's working towards.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.

So all other options should be explored before we rush in to the No Deal.

 

[Beezerk]

So all other options should be explored before we rush in to the No Deal.

Well yes but what options are there? Nothing will get through the HOC, Lib Dems and Labour have already stated that in not so many words. Then again Labour are all over the shop so they may change their minds if the wind blows from the South.

 

[drdel]

Likewise!

That's why I believe 'No Deal by Default' is the only possible outcome.

I think logically that's right perhaps helped because revoking Art50 is a major challenge even though Swinson has declared that to be the Lib Dem position.

There's still the risk IMO of a minority government after a GE and that will keep this circus performing back flips but after a few more months of extensions the EU might shut the door.

I see France is going to seek emergency aid from the EU to help with the cost of Brexit e.g. port expansion etc - 'emergency aid' really I'm sure the Bahamas would agree on the French/EU priorities!