Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????

Unbelievable!

As others have pointed out, it's the banks who are ripping you off, not the EU. And it was the EU who recently outlawed credit card surcharges for domestic as well as international purchases.

Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!

 

[rudebhoy]

Unbelievable!

As others have pointed out, it's the banks who are ripping you off, not the EU. And it was the EU who recently outlawed credit card surcharges for domestic as well as international purchases.

Also worth noting, if we had joined the eurozone, the money in your pocket would be worth a fair bit more than it is now :

Jan 2003 pound vs euro 1.60 now 1.11
Jan 2003 pound vs dollar 1.60 now 1.23
Jan 2003 euro vs dollar 1.10 now 1.12

 

[SocketRocket]

Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!

Its just as easy to level the same point to the propogands used by remain. Maybe there would have been a substantial leave majority without it.

Who knows either way.

 

[SocketRocket]

Also worth noting, if we had joined the eurozone, the money in your pocket would be worth a fair bit more than it is now :

Jan 2003 pound vs euro 1.60 now 1.11
Jan 2003 pound vs dollar 1.60 now 1.23
Jan 2003 euro vs dollar 1.10 now 1.12

If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.

 

[rudebhoy]

Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!

was at the gym yesterday, some guy was spouting forth about how Boris was right and was the only person who was trying to deliver what the people had voted for. I pointed out not one person had voted for a no deal because that wasn't an option. At the time we were being told we would get a fantastic deal.

If 17m people had voted for a clear no deal, then there would be no legitimate reason for delaying it in order to try to get a deal.

 

[rudebhoy]

If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.

is that the best you can come up with? really?

 

[Foxholer]

If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.

Or in the circus!

Which is what the entire exercise seems to have been!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

What will the media do for the next 5 weeks? Presumably Boris will keep touring Europe, speaking to leaders etc but largely the whole furore will die down? Not a bad thing really. Hopefully a chink of light will appear, a small compromise can be found. If I was Boris I would be asking those leaders why would they extend for 3 months? What do they think will happen to break the logjam as at this point the opposition have no new idea to actually take things forward other than they don't actually want a no deal? They can tell you what they don't want, not what they do want. Set them thinking. October 31st could still be the leave date.

Incidentally, if anyone's Aunt has a willy but wants to be known as your Aunt still then in this modern era she can be, apparently.

 

[ColchesterFC]

was at the gym yesterday, some guy was spouting forth about how Boris was right and was the only person who was trying to deliver what the people had voted for. I pointed out not one person had voted for a no deal because that wasn't an option. At the time we were being told we would get a fantastic deal.

If 17m people had voted for a clear no deal, then there would be no legitimate reason for delaying it in order to try to get a deal.

The flip side of that is that not one person voted for a deal because that wasn't an option. The only options were leave or remain.

The EU have negotiated a deal which they say is the only one on offer and can't be changed. Our MPs have rejected that deal 3 times which leaves No Deal or Revoke Article 50 as the only options left to us. Much as I would like to see Article 50 revoked and for us to stay in the EU I'm not convinced that is a viable solution. My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October. The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

What will the media do for the next 5 weeks? Presumably Boris will keep touring Europe, speaking to leaders etc but largely the whole furore will die down? Not a bad thing really. Hopefully a chink of light will appear, a small compromise can be found. If I was Boris I would be asking those leaders why would they extend for 3 months? What do they think will happen to break the logjam as at this point the opposition have no new idea to actually take things forward other than they don't actually want a no deal? They can tell you what they don't want, not what they do want. Set them thinking. October 31st could still be the leave date.

Incidentally, if anyone's Aunt has a willy but wants to be known as your Aunt still then in this modern era she can be, apparently.

Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him don’t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesn’t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TM’s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and it’s us who have stood still, not them.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The flip side of that is that not one person voted for a deal because that wasn't an option. The only options were leave or remain.

The EU have negotiated a deal which they say is the only one on offer and can't be changed. Our MPs have rejected that deal 3 times which leaves No Deal or Revoke Article 50 as the only options left to us. Much as I would like to see Article 50 revoked and for us to stay in the EU I'm not convinced that is a viable solution. My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October. The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.

Surely after Amber Rudd resigned and stated she believes he’s after a No Deal you still don’t believe the Government spin.
She was on the inside of No 10.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Any number of banks and cards with zero charges for travel money. Perhaps shop around a bit.

Sorry, I've found a card that I've got that works for free.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him don’t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesn’t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TM’s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and it’s us who have stood still, not them.

Even after several Labour MPs have said that if they were in power they would talk to the EU about the deal, put it to a 2nd referendum and then vote against that deal? So it appears that this week's plan from Labour is to negotiate a deal with the EU and reject that deal in favour of remaining. But it will all be OK as they will have changed that position by next week and Baldrick Corbyn will have a whole new cunning plan.

 

[Foxholer]

Its just as easy to level the same point to the propogands used by remain. Maybe there would have been a substantial leave majority without it.

Who knows either way.

It's my view that there was far less actual 'propoganda' and the claims (both ''real' and exaggerated (so 'propoganda')) that were made by Remain were far easier (to) 'put down'. Many of the (imo) real claims were simply either deemed to be 'propoganda', or written off as either 'scaremongering' or 'we'll sort that out as part of (or after) The Deal!'. Basically, the Leave campaign was at an advantage because it's easier to criticise the way things currently (don't) wotk compared to showing the benefits of how well things currently work. And that would even have been the case without the 'dishonesty on an industrial scale' of the Leave bunch.

Basically, Remain was always going to be 'harder to sell' than Leave - imo!

 

[ColchesterFC]

Surely after Amber Rudd resigned and stated she believes he’s after a No Deal you still don’t believe the Government spin.
She was on the inside of No 10.

Why should I believe any of them. Why believe Rudd and not Johnson? Her criticism seemed to be that 80/90% of the efforts were going in to No Deal preparation. The government has been slated for not preparing for no deal previously and now is getting slated for preparing for no deal. It was just my feeling of what would have happened. I think with the threat of No Deal on the table the EU would have made some minor adjustments to the agreement that would have enabled it to get through the HOCs. It wouldn't have been enough to please the extremes on either side but could well have been enough to get a majority. Just my opinion and nothing to do with government spin.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Also, on the deal thing, even if Boris come back with a deal that works, and Lord know what that will have to be to satisfy the Remainers, I suppose basically to stay in, which he will not be asking for, would the Remainers vote for it? I seriously doubt it, as they have slagged BJ off from the start....and lets face it he's done nothing yet, so how can they slag a bloke off who's not been able to actaully do anything. Apart from switch off the lights in the HOC, which is no bad thing as they were going round and round saying the same things over and over. Totally pointless.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

And why are the Remainers believing everything the EU clowns are saying and not our own representatives???? Who says the EU don't lie?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Brexit on NI by a staunch Brexit Voter (ex). Peter Oborne - Daily Mail chief political columnist/commentator in Bessbrook. Let's not forget as too many seem willing and able to do.

 

[SocketRocket]

It's my view that there was far less actual 'propoganda' and the claims (both ''real' and exaggerated (so 'propoganda')) that were made by Remain were far easier (to) 'put down'. Many of the (imo) real claims were simply either deemed to be 'propoganda', or written off as either 'scaremongering' or 'we'll sort that out as part of (or after) The Deal!'. Basically, the Leave campaign was at an advantage because it's easier to criticise the way things currently (don't) wotk compared to showing the benefits of how well things currently work. And that would even have been the case without the 'dishonesty on an industrial scale' of the Leave bunch.

Basically, Remain was always going to be 'harder to sell' than Leave - imo!

Just take a look back at the dishonesty on an 'industrial' scale of exaggerated claims made by the likes of Cameron, Osborne and Carney before the referendum, these were eye watering BS.

 

[MegaSteve]

Still, for me, the political classes were never going to take instruction from the electorate... Never have never will...

Have become ever more resigned we are stuck with Brussels...