Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Fade and Die]

Teresa thought that.
That never went well.
Nobody’s prepared to move so I can see it getting worse.
It’s a mess but staying in is not an option as we voted to leave.

T tried to get through the worst manifesto in history on the strength that Corbyn is unelectable, she got that badly wrong. Think it would be very different now.
Agree your last sentence BTW

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK, 202,000 people came to the UK, last year from the EU, this represents an increase of 4% on the total.

I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.

 

[Taz]

good summary here :

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-08-14...ree-that-brexit-talks-are-dead-robert-peston/

 

[ger147]

I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.

A figure of 202,000 gets a mention in this article, that may be what the other poster was referring to.

https://www.ft.com/content/46ac0fa6-7e02-11e9-81d2-f785092ab560

 

[Hacker Khan]

And you prove the point I made. As for your reductive bit, which you’ve used before, I’ve seen you use the reductive argument yourself on occasion but couldn’t be bothered responding because of your supercilious responses when someone highlights the flaws in your arguments.

The entitlement theme runs through so much of society now, and if you won’t acknowledge it’s there... maybe instead of suggesting it’s a reductive argument, maybe you look in the mirror.

Sorry for questioning in your point, whatever it was. Won't happen again.

 

[Fade and Die]

Hope Boris has the stones to carry it out....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...s-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/

Not surprised It has public support though. Majority of people sickened by the way this parliament has acted.

 

[Mudball]

So govt blames prev govt for lying .. hang on, the prev govt was them ..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1161577724487454722

 

[ger147]

Some very interesting numbers in a new opinion poll:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/12/peop...ment-push-no-deal-brexit-poll-shows-10560183/

Illustrates some of the issues with opinion polls perfectly, 54% of people in favour of proroguing parliament to allow a No Deal Brexit but 51% in favour of stopping Brexit if issues over the NI border threaten to split up the Union. It seems the great British public are just as conflicted as our MP's.

 

[clubchamp98]

Some very interesting numbers in a new opinion poll:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/12/peop...ment-push-no-deal-brexit-poll-shows-10560183/

Illustrates some of the issues with opinion polls perfectly, 54% of people in favour of proroguing parliament to allow a No Deal Brexit but 51% in favour of stopping Brexit if issues over the NI border threaten to split up the Union. It seems the great British public are just as conflicted as our MP's.

MPs are used to ignoring the public.
But Brexit splits the party’s so lots of labour voters want to leave / stay ,,same for all party’s.
You only have to look at party manifestos off all governments to see how much they change their minds./lie.

Teressa and Phil have had a go at negotiating with the EU and got a Hand in the face.
So another way is necessary.
No deal is not ideal but both of them said “it’s better than a bad deal”
Now he has changed his mind.

 

[SocketRocket]

I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.

The number hasn't reduced, the increase is smaller.

 

[Blue in Munich]

And excluding don't knows. Remain = 47.3%, Leave = 52.7%

So basically identical to the referendum outcome.

But only 19% choose the No Deal option - that option now seemingly being passively pursued by the government (as their negotiation pre-condition effectively rules out negotiation).

So less than 1 in 5 of the electorate expressing an opinion choose the option to leave with No Deal. And yet forcing such through - with or without parliamentary approval - is thought to be acceptable and somehow democratic and reflecting the 'will of the people'? Maybe all 'dealers' would prefer 'no deal' to 'remain' - and I have no doubt that many would. But we don't actually know that. And polls are just polls. Maybe the electorate should be asked.

Though weirdly the Survation polls also finds 55:45 split Remain:Leave in the event of another referendum...but that's just a poll.

Never miss an opportunity , eh.

As only 48% of those polled voted to leave, that 19% actually represents about 40% of the leave voters, so the split on leaving with deal or no deal isn't that far away from the referendum result. But never let the facts get in the way of your personal agenda.

 

[chrisd]

I keep hearing "nobody voted to leave with no deal" but I'm sure the voting paper didnt ask that question any more than it didnt ask "should we only leave with a deal"

 

[Parsaregood]

It's really quite simple, if one is to negotiate one has to be prepared to walk away in order to get the best deal. If you want a deal you cannot take no deal off the table and no deal was a scenario spoken about at length by many leading remainers during the campaign, much to the denial of many of them even though interviews have now surfaced with many of them speaking about it. It's like buying a car, if the price is too high or something isnt quite right you walk away.

My guess is that a deal will be done in the last 48 hours when the EU realises it has no choice. Theresa May should be ashamed the way she and her cabinet handled the negotiations over the last 3 years, its an absolute disgrace. Thank God Boris at least has the balls to tell it how it is and I believe him when he says we will leave on the the 31st. His public questions today were refreshing to hear and also a very good way of keeping in touch with ordinary people, long may it continue.

 

[Parsaregood]

I keep hearing "nobody voted to leave with no deal" but I'm sure the voting paper didnt ask that question any more than it didnt ask "should we only leave with a deal"

Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country

 

[SocketRocket]

Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country

That's correct. We were told time and time again that a leave vote meant leaving the single market, customs union and EU institutions. It just seems like remainers feel entitled to their wishes having more value than leavers even though the vote went to leave.

 

[Foxholer]

Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country

While they may be 'refusing to accept the result', they are in no way 'trying to undermine democracy'! Simply use their democratic rights - and position/s - to achieve their aims. And that's their democratic right, just as it's yours to (say) boot them out when/if you can!

 

[Parsaregood]

While they may be 'refusing to accept the result', they are in no way 'trying to undermine democracy'! Simply use their democratic rights - and position/s - to achieve their aims. And that's their democratic right, just as it's yours to (say) boot them out when/if you can!

There is nothing democratic about trying to ignore a referendum with s clear mandate to deliver leave, the new Lib Dem leader has also said she would not accept a second referendum result if it produced a leave outcome, its laughable and also deeply worrying people like this have gotten so high up in politics

 

[Foxholer]

That's correct. We were told time and time again that a leave vote meant leaving the single market, customs union and EU institutions. It just seems like remainers feel entitled to their wishes having more value than leavers even though the vote went to leave.

I disagree!

Just as Remainers (seem to have) made less noise about the 'good' parts of EU membership (compsred to Leavers noise about the 'bad' parts) pre-Referendum, the roles have now reversed. And it's pretty natural for the 'noisy protesters' to (seem to?) be given more publicity than the 'currently content non-protesters'! And the news media unconsciousl contributes to that 'imbalance' too!

 

[Parsaregood]

I disagree!

Just as Remainers (seem to have) made less noise about the 'good' parts of EU membership (compsred to Leavers noise about the 'bad' parts) pre-Referendum, the roles have now reversed. And it's pretty natural for the 'noisy protesters' to (seem to?) be given more publicity than the 'currently content non-protesters'! And the news media unconsciousl contributes to that 'imbalance' too!

You disagree that countless remainers who campaigned speaking in 2016 saying a no deal WTO outcome was a genuine possibility even though footage has now appeared with many of them speaking of it. The sad thing is a few of them deny this was ever spoken about !

 

[Foxholer]

There is nothing democratic about trying to ignore a referendum with s clear mandate to deliver leave, the new Lib Dem leader has also said she would not accept a second referendum result if it produced a leave outcome, its laughable and also deeply worrying people like this have gotten so high up in politics

For me, in a democracy, if it's no illegal to do something, then it's a democratic right to do so! Vote them out, if you can, by all means - that's your democratic right. Say they are abusing their position if you want (I'm ambivalent on that!). But a fundamental part of UK Democracy (The Court System) has decreed that it's Parliament that is the 'final arbiter'! It's now up to the Government to ensure that that happens! That's how UK Democracy works!