Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

That was then...…..now is a totally different story.
The UK is not seen as a desired destination now for EU workers, not felt welcome/falling £££££s/etc etc.
In the meantime our NHS, Armed Forces and agri work sections are seriously understaffed.

Immigrants from the EU increased by 4% in the last year. Your comment is twaddle.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I agree the result was narrow (it was always going to be simply based on statistical theory and a binary choice set out across millions of voters) - but there was a result.

What annoys me is the MPs on all sides of the HoC would agreed to set the process in motion. They gave a commitment to follow the result and but renege on that collective commitment. Not only have they not supported the result but we also we have senior MPs (Hammond is one of the worst and a prime example) who are deliberately undermining negotiations and frustrating ANY attempt to move forward.

Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.

 

[Fade and Die]

Just in case the waters are getting muddied by the “we didn’t vote for no deal” nonsense.....

 

[SocketRocket]

Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.

But thats a LINO deal, its not a deal its abject Surrender, the type of thing countries sign when they lose a war.

 

[Taz]

Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.

He also said this :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1161398263855099904

 

[User62651]

Just in case the waters are getting muddied by the “we didn’t vote for no deal” nonsense.....


View attachment 27975

if it's so simple just leave then. This head in sand attitude that leaving the EU is akin to simply walking out of a room and closing the door behind you is so frustrating. Instead of bleating Leave means Leave, Leavers need to find solutions to the many things holding us back from leaving. Seems Boris and Tories can't do that. You will need to break up the UK for one for a workable sea border down Irish sea, a land border is required but isn't acceptable within the island of Ireland, so if Brexit is so important why are leave led Tories not being proactive in that instead of resisting for example? They want it all ways but are offering no real solutions to why we haven't left, just blame shifting now to either EU or Theresa May as they can't do what they promised would be so easy 4 years ago.
Brexiteers own this and have taken over Govt. Up to them to find solutions good enough to get a parliamentary majority to see it through.
Infighting in Tory party is running so deep now I don't think Boris can win in Commons for No Deal or win an overall majority at next GE unless he gets a deal. However EU have an agreed if unratified WA and they're not shifting from that. 27 sticking together, not unsurprising.

Something major has to give soon.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

NEW: Preferred Brexit outcome, updated: Remain in the EU 43% (+2) Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2) Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6) Don’t know 9% (+2) changes w/ May 2019 (link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/) survation.com/general-electi…

If my maths are correct thats Remain = 43, Leave = 48.

And excluding don't knows. Remain = 47.3%, Leave = 52.7%

So basically identical to the referendum outcome.

But only 19% choose the No Deal option - that option now seemingly being passively pursued by the government (as their negotiation pre-condition effectively rules out negotiation).

So less than 1 in 5 of the electorate expressing an opinion choose the option to leave with No Deal. And yet forcing such through - with or without parliamentary approval - is thought to be acceptable and somehow democratic and reflecting the 'will of the people'? Maybe all 'dealers' would prefer 'no deal' to 'remain' - and I have no doubt that many would. But we don't actually know that. And polls are just polls. Maybe the electorate should be asked.

Though weirdly the Survation polls also finds 55:45 split Remain:Leave in the event of another referendum...but that's just a poll.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Immigrants from the EU increased by 4% in the last year. Your comment is twaddle.

Have you a link to support that statement. The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.

 

[MegaSteve]

Have you a link to support that statement. The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.

My Polish physio advises 'our' zero hour/gig economy no longer cuts it as an attraction to remain working here...

 

[drdel]

if it's so simple just leave then. This head in sand attitude that leaving the EU is akin to simply walking out of a room and closing the door behind you is so frustrating. Instead of bleating Leave means Leave, Leavers need to find solutions to the many things holding us back from leaving. Seems Boris and Tories can't do that. You will need to break up the UK for one for a workable sea border down Irish sea, a land border is required but isn't acceptable within the island of Ireland, so if Brexit is so important why are leave led Tories not being proactive in that instead of resisting for example? They want it all ways but are offering no real solutions to why we haven't left, just blame shifting now to either EU or Theresa May as they can't do what they promised would be so easy 4 years ago.
Brexiteers own this and have taken over Govt. Up to them to find solutions good enough to get a parliamentary majority to see it through.
Infighting in Tory party is running so deep now I don't think Boris can win in Commons for No Deal or win an overall majority at next GE unless he gets a deal. However EU have an agreed if unratified WA and they're not shifting from that. 27 sticking together, not unsurprising.

Something major has to give soon.

You may have missed the fact but parliament voted and triggered Article 50 and started the process in law.

 

[User62651]

You may have missed the fact but parliament voted and triggered Article 50 and started the process in law.

You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.

 

[drdel]

You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.

There are over 10,000 posts in this thread - at a guess probably in the region of 50% will have contents that address the issues you repeated.

 

[ger147]

You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.

I think the point may have been that legally, there doesn't have to be any more votes in the HoC's for a No Deal to take place.

Politically is a different story of course as a majority of MP's are opposed to a no deal Brexit, but legislation wise Boris doesn't need any more votes for a No Deal to happen.

 

[SocketRocket]

Have you a link to support that statement. The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.

OK, 202,000 people came to the UK, last year from the EU, this represents an increase of 4% on the total.

 

[User62651]

There are over 10,000 posts in this thread - at a guess probably in the region of 50% will have contents that address the issues you repeated.

My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots.
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......if you can.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

NEW: Preferred Brexit outcome, updated: Remain in the EU 43% (+2) Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2) Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6) Don’t know 9% (+2) changes w/ May 2019 (link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/) survation.com/general-electi…

If my maths are correct thats Remain = 43, Leave = 48.

In some parts of the UK in a different referendum the press headline would be screaming ' New poll shows massive support for Remain as majority reject Leave'

 

[SocketRocket]

My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots.
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......if you can.

You are honestly asking some people on a golf forum to 'sort out Brexit' really! You and other leavers opposition and castigation of people wanting to leave the EU has been repeated over and over.
Your description of unelected tactitions calling the shots applies to every political party in the UK.

Sorting it out would be easy if it wasnt for the remainers wish to thwart leaving by absolutely any means they can conjure up.

Get a bit of balance please.

 

[Hobbit]

Is this just back to the same old argument that the 48% should just shut up and not point out what they believe is the madness in a no deal Brexit?

I imagine in a general/local election people will still accept the results, and if they feel strongly enough will actively work to change the result in 4 or 5 years time. However it seems that people perceive the current situation as very different.

It's a bit different to whether Anna Soubry or Nick Palmer gets in, whether Labour Councillor Adams or Green Councillor James gets in. It's a bit more important than that and will define our politics, economy and it seems increasingly what we are as a nation for years to come. Politics seems no longer to be red V blue but leave V remain. So total deference to privately educated cabinet ministers who arguably could be said to have some personal power issues that may override governing in the best interests of the whole nation, seems to be less relevant to some.

And extrapolating that we are now a nation of spoilt brats who will refuse to accept any legally binding election from now on is reductive at best.

And you prove the point I made. As for your reductive bit, which you’ve used before, I’ve seen you use the reductive argument yourself on occasion but couldn’t be bothered responding because of your supercilious responses when someone highlights the flaws in your arguments.

The entitlement theme runs through so much of society now, and if you won’t acknowledge it’s there... maybe instead of suggesting it’s a reductive argument, maybe you look in the mirror.

 

[Fade and Die]

My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots.
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......if you can.

Aye and there’s the rub. A remainer parliament is doing everything in its power to prevent it.

And talking of Stooges I give you John Bercow the “impartial” speaker who has said he will “fight with every breath” to prevent a no deal Brexit. So although we do have the man we want in charge it seems he is being blocked by remainers.

My preference? Call a general election. Boris positions himself as the only genuine leaver so hopefully mops up the Brexit party votes. Bit of a quandary for the millions of labour leavers though. Be interesting to see what way they vote. I think Boris would win with a majority of 40.

 

[clubchamp98]

Aye and there’s the rub. A remainer parliament is doing everything in its power to prevent it.

And talking of Stooges I give you John Bercow the “impartial” speaker who has said he will “fight with every breath” to prevent a no deal Brexit. So although we do have the man we want in charge it seems he is being blocked by remainers.

My preference? Call a general election. Boris positions himself as the only genuine leaver so hopefully mops up the Brexit party votes. Bit of a quandary for the millions of labour leavers though. Be interesting to see what way they vote. I think Boris would win with a majority of 40.

Teresa thought that.
That never went well.
Nobody’s prepared to move so I can see it getting worse.
It’s a mess but staying in is not an option as we voted to leave.