Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Instead of just printing things you read, how about giving us an insight on the article.

We can all just regurgitate items from the media.

I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive. Sorry - not good enough. You can't have it both ways. Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it. If we leave my opinion is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM. In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.

 

[SocketRocket]

I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive. Sorry - not good enough. You can't have it both ways. Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it. If we leave my opinion is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM. In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.

🤯

 

[drdel]

I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive. Sorry - not good enough. You can't have it both ways. Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it. If we leave my opinion is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM. In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.

I have to confess that I'm struggling to read, understand and treat you recent posts with any seriousness. I struggle to find the point of argument/debate among what I assume to be sarcasm buried in overly emotive assertions.

For me, if you kept to simply making a straightforward statement of your interpretation of the current status I'd hope we could move the debate/discussion along in a more respectful way.

 

[Old Skier]

I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive. Sorry - not good enough. You can't have it both ways. Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it. If we leave my opinion is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM. In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.

What pack I rarely post on the subject these days due to the fact that nothing has changed or happened for a couple of months.

. Most of your "opinions" are based on what your mate down the pub said, the hairdresser, things you read and what you hear on your rant radio.

 

[chrisd]

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it. If we leave my opinion is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM. In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.

So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!

 

[Kellfire]

So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!

When my emotions are really up when discussing Brexit, I’ll admit my rational side can go and I sometimes find myself thinking that I can’t wait to say, “I told you so” to those who want us to leave the EU. I’d be amazed if I’m not in a sizeable minority at times with that view - us humans are passionate beasts.

 

[chrisd]

When my emotions are really up when discussing Brexit, I’ll admit my rational side can go and I sometimes find myself thinking that I can’t wait to say, “I told you so” to those who want us to leave the EU. I’d be amazed if I’m not in a sizeable minority at times with that view - us humans are passionate beasts.

I get that and there will be finger pointing, the answer coming back will always be "we couldn't have known when we voted" I voted in the original vote to go in but couldn't have known how bad it would turn out - I guess I'm to blame 😁

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!

I'd rather we did not leave at all. And if there is another referendum I will campaign and vote to Remain.

But if we have to leave then in so many ways it would be better that we leave without a deal (most likely anyway). For many leave voters there is now no deal - not even a 'good' deal if such were possible - that will be good enough and that would not be portrayed as other than a sell out by such as Farage and the ERG - besides, the ballot paper said Leave/Remain - no mention of deal. I fear that any deal - not even a new good one - will anger a large number of leave voters - an anger stoked by the usual suspects - and that representation in Westminster of Farage & Collaborators Ltd. will become inevitable. And I absolutely do not want to see that.

A clear and unambiguous 'no agreement' exit means that the lead proponents of leaving can take the plaudits and thanks for the benefits, freedoms and control that will ensue - and will hopefully see the start of the demise of Farage and his crew.

 

[Hobbit]

Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.

Which is all well and good - but as we are told endlessly - it was the numbers that voted that mattered - and only a 2 in 100 change of vote or subsequent change of mind would have the numbers equal. This was a referendum and nothing to do with constituencies or MPs.

I am going on holiday with a bunch of mates. We have two choices on what to do as soon as we arrive at our hotel 1) we dive into the pool 2) head straight into the bar

We have a vote. The vote is to dive into the pool. We arrive at the hotel and the pool is empty.

Do we look at each other and say - well we had a democratic vote and that vote was to dive into to the pool - and so dive into it we must - we must enact our previous decision? No - of course we don't. We look at each other and say - well we didn't expect or know that - that changes things. Maybe we don't dive in - maybe we just adjourn to the bar - and if the pool is filled later in the day or in the holiday then we may choose to dive in then. but we do not dive into an empty pool now unless we want to do ourselves real damage.

It's quite simple. The democratic vote was as it was back then. If since then we have cared to listen, we might find that we know much, much more about the choice now, than we did then. A democracy allows a change of mind given a change of understanding or circumstances. There is nothing about a democracy that mandates we must enact a decision before we can change our mind.

But I know that that is too obvious for many - and that for many Leave now we must regardless - and we see that with the increasing popularity of leaving with No Deal as that is clearly, to those many, the easiest way out - as we can just do that by ourselves if we let ourselves. It's Easy.

And as leaving with No Deal is easy and that fits with the leaving is easy mindset of so many, it matters not what anyone might say or point out to the contrary.

It is exceedingly depressing. The country is severely divided - I doubt it can become even more so - anger at this mess is not the sole preserve of leave voters. And so hell mend them. If it has to be, and if it's going to be so easy - bring it on.

 

[Hobbit]

Which is all well and good - but as we are told endlessly - it was the numbers that voted that mattered - and only a 2 in 100 change of vote or subsequent change of mind would have the numbers equal. This was a referendum and nothing to do with constituencies or MPs.

I am going on holiday with a bunch of mates. We have two choices on what to do as soon as we arrive at our hotel 1) we dive into the pool 2) head straight into the bar

We have a vote. The vote is to dive into the pool. We arrive at the hotel and the pool is empty.

Do we look at each other and say - well we had a democratic vote and that vote was to dive into to the pool - and so dive into it we must - we must enact our previous decision? No - of course we don't. We look at each other and say - well we didn't expect or know that - that changes things. Maybe we don't dive in - maybe we just adjourn to the bar - and if the pool is filled later in the day or in the holiday then we may choose to dive in then. but we do not dive into an empty pool now unless we want to do ourselves real damage.

It's quite simple. The democratic vote was as it was back then. If since then we have cared to listen, we might find that we know much, much more about the choice now, than we did then. A democracy allows a change of mind given a change of understanding or circumstances. There is nothing about a democracy that mandates we must enact a decision before we can change our mind.

But I know that that is too obvious for many - and that for many Leave now we must regardless - and we see that with the increasing popularity of leaving with No Deal as that is clearly, to those many, the easiest way out - as we can just do that by ourselves if we let ourselves. It's Easy.

And as leaving with No Deal is easy and that fits with the leaving is easy mindset of so many, it matters not what anyone might say or point out to the contrary.

It is exceedingly depressing. The country is severely divided - I doubt it can become even more so - anger at this mess is not the sole preserve of leave voters. And so hell mend them. If it has to be, and if it's going to be so easy - bring it on.

Arguing the semantics is pointless Hugh, and the what if's even more so. Your analogy is far too simplistic. As much as I don't want to the UK Leave I feel that democracy won't be served until it does. Democracy is; create a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. All this, after the fact hair splitting, however well intentioned, breaks the democratic loop of the 3 stages of democracy - I suppose after one year of a Tory govt we should have all campaigned for another GE...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Arguing the semantics is pointless Hugh, and the what if's even more so. Your analogy is far too simplistic. As much as I don't want to the UK Leave I feel that democracy won't be served until it does. Democracy is; create a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. All this, after the fact hair splitting, however well intentioned, breaks the democratic loop of the 3 stages of democracy - I suppose after one year of a Tory govt we should have all campaigned for another GE...

It's not simplistic to suggest an electorate can change it's mind. It is frankly insane for anyone or any organisation to initiate something decided upon 3 yrs ago, that is now understood to have significant risk of short - but also long - term detrimental harm - with very uncertain positive outcomes or timescales for them to materialise.

Further - some democracies have a second chamber that can and does stop legislation from a lower chamber proceeding when they deem that legislation to be contrary to the long term good of the country.

But UK politics today is pretty insane - I could choose another word but that would just be ... semantics

 

[Slime]

The problem with this thread is that both remainers and brexiters are inclined to look for, and then post, only the soundbites and press articles that support their particular sides' argument.
Brexiters and remainers seem to be getting increasingly entrenched in their own arguments and are prone to ignore counter arguments to their own disposition.
I'm also guilty of the same.
For those who are not sure which camp I'm in I think I'll post this interesting nugget which I stumbled across this morning and I'll leave you with a little ''Just Saying''.

https://britishjournal.net/new-brex...xSl9D-eg6Bf9_kCqekUMsZiwonJCnC9GdLWZBs2pXuFJY

Okay, it's from the British Journal, but I'm sure they haven't just made it up.

 

[Hacker Khan]

The problem with this thread is that both remainers and brexiters are inclined to look for, and then post, only the soundbites and press articles that support their particular sides' argument.
Brexiters and remainers seem to be getting increasingly entrenched in their own arguments and are prone to ignore counter arguments to their own disposition.
I'm also guilty of the same.
For those who are not sure which camp I'm in I think I'll post this interesting nugget which I stumbled across this morning and I'll leave you with a little ''Just Saying''.

https://britishjournal.net/new-brex...xSl9D-eg6Bf9_kCqekUMsZiwonJCnC9GdLWZBs2pXuFJY

Okay, it's from the British Journal, but I'm sure they haven't just made it up.

Genuine question, do you read that report and believe it to be likely true? Not the fact that someone has published a report as that is obviously true, but do you believe all/any of the analysis that we are likely to be billions upon billions better off after a no deal? A report written by Economists for Brexit? I'm not questioning the fact that those economists may well believe some/all of what they have written. But do reports written by people with an obvious vested interest in one conculsion being reached mean as much? I'd like to think that if I saw a report by say a group called 'Economists for Greater European Unity' I'd kind of know what it is likely to say to begin with and would therefore mostly just dismiss it. I am just wondering how much filtering out of stuff goes on on both sides?

 

[Kellfire]

Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.

Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU.

I’ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. They’re there to make decisions for us.

 

[chrisd]

Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU.

I’ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. They’re there to make decisions for us.

But the decision they made was to have a referendum so did they abrogate their decision making responsibilities or did they know best that we would make the right decision?

 

[Fade and Die]

I’ll just leave this here for the deniers...

 

[SocketRocket]

Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU.

I’ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. They’re there to make decisions for us.

They did make decisions for us.
They decided to let the voting public decide whether we stay or leave the EU.
They voted to enact (article 50) the process to make the UK leave the EU
They voted for the bill to revert all EU law into UK law.

If you do indeed believe MPs make decisions for us then surely you must accept they made the decisions that have led to us leaving the EU.

 

[Foxholer]

But the decision they made was to have a referendum so did they abrogate their decision making responsibilities or did they know best that we would make the right decision?

MPs didn't make the decision to have a referendum! The PM, at the time, made that decision! And when the public made the 'wrong' decision (in his opinion), he ran away from the job!

 

[SocketRocket]

MPs didn't make the decision to have a referendum! The PM, at the time, made that decision! And when the public made the 'wrong' decision (in his opinion), he ran away from the job!

Yes they did, the PM only proposed it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015