Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Grant85]

Just picking out a few bit.

Free movement; I'm not sure all Leavers saw the ending free movement as their complete reason to vote Leave.
Customs union; this one is often trotted out. Just about every single politician made it very clear the a vote for Leave meant out of the single market and out of the customs union.
No Deal and WTO; again, plenty of people were aware of WTO, though not the detail, and plenty took on board the constant barrage of out of the single market and customs union touted by the politicians.

And you're right, it only needed 635,000 to be swayed the other way. As for the Europeans that couldn't vote, you can also add in over 1,000,000 expats around the world who have a vested interest in the outcome. Many wanted to vote, and I believe should have been entitled to vote. Many of them are retired, and after paying upwards of 50 years income tax they rely on the ease of pensions transfer/exchange rate and reciprocal healthcare agreements. Some of those, like myself, because of the pension coming from govt backed industry, the NHS, still pay taxes in the UK.

But all of the above relies on what ifs and what about. After 3 years we are passed dissecting numbers to satisfy an argument that relies on what ifs. Its the tomorrows that will resolve this mess, not the yesterdays.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here.

In 2015, David Cameron won a majority that was on the basis of the electorate at that time (including EU citizens). He then had a referendum that included a smaller electorate. Doesn't make sense to me that this should have been allowed to happen.

If you live here and pay your taxes here, you should get a vote.

 

[Paperboy]

Only people living in Scotland got a vote, regardless of where you were born or if you had full citizenship or not.

This was not the same criteria applied to EU referendum. Commonwalth citizens got a vote. Colleague of mine working here with an EU passport wasn't going to get the vote, but as he also has an SA passport he managed to apply to vote in the EU referendum.

The Scottish referendum was a full franchise of everyone from 16 and over. A far more fair and inclusive franchise. So in fact nothing like the Scottish referendum.

You said that it was unfair EU citizens didn't get a vote. So surely it's the same as Scotland leaving the U.K, it effects everyone in the Uk so why was everyone not given a vote?

 

[chrisd]

Cameron was giving his vision of what Leave meant to him, his was laughed at and shot down, now you’re suggesting we should accept he was right.
This is also the man who refused to let Government Departments prepare for a no vote and why ever since the EU have an upper hand.
I’ve got no issue with a Government using the “No Deal” scenario as a statement of fact if prepared properly, but imo, it’s used as a willy waving concept.
We need to stop, start again and Leave properly without the EU dictating it all.
Like these elections on thursday, why didn’t we simply say, “No, we’re taking part as we are leaving” end of.

If Cameron didn't understand what leave meant no one did, he specifically said that leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union - that speech was not during the 'project fear' campaign.The EU would not have the upper hand if we stated that no deal, and no payment, was our default policy but that we'd rather not use it.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here.
...

I agree! I'm an ex-pat Kiwi and was entitled to vote for quite a while after I came here - because I returned for a visit every couple of years. I haven't been back since Mum's funeral, so that (3 years) entitlement has lapsed. While I maintained, and still maintain, an interest in NZ politics, once I considered I was too far removed from the issues/arguments, I stopped voting, even though entitled.

I believe ex-pats should be allowed to vote in their home country elections for, and only for, a certain period! NZ's 3 year period, corresponds to the normal NZ election cycle and seems about right. As UK's 'normal' election cycle is 5 years, that would be fine. The current 15 years ability seems too much.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You said that it was unfair EU citizens didn't get a vote. So surely it's the same as Scotland leaving the U.K, it effects everyone in the Uk so why was everyone not given a vote?

To follow that train to thought, then all EU citizens should be able to vote to decide if EngWaland should be allowed leave the EU.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

If Cameron didn't understand what leave meant no one did, he specifically said that leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union - that speech was not during the 'project fear' campaign.The EU would not have the upper hand if we stated that no deal, and no payment, was our default policy but that we'd rather not use it.

But Cameron didn’t believe he’d lose, so him and his Government did nothing.
It’s hindsight Chris, a lot of mistakes have been made by a lot of people, none of them are willing to take responsibility and have walked away.
So we are at this point in time and I don’t think any of us will be happy with the outcome, I’d rather take another couple of years and leave properly rather than this boom, bust, scaremongering, knee jerk reactions we’re getting now.

 

[Dando]

I'm not sure the part in bold would be a wise move, if we are looking to do new deals with other countries around the world. Much of that money will be what we owe for things like agreed funding for projects and future pension contributions etc. It wouldn't look good if we defaulted on those debts.

Isn't the £39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?

 

[chrisd]

Isn't the £39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?

I'm pretty sure there isn't a justification for all of the money, I would agree that some is for pensions but I haven't seen any bill that totals £39b

 

[Dando]

I'm pretty sure there isn't a justification for all of the money, I would agree that some is for pensions but I haven't seen any bill that totals £39b

It does, as Abbott helped with the sums. She used all 87 of her fingers and 35 toes

 

[chrisd]

It does, as Abbott helped with the sums. She used all 87 of her fingers and 35 toes

I knew there'd be a simple explanation 😁

 

[Hobbit]

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here.

In 2015, David Cameron won a majority that was on the basis of the electorate at that time (including EU citizens). He then had a referendum that included a smaller electorate. Doesn't make sense to me that this should have been allowed to happen.

If you live here and pay your taxes here, you should get a vote.

I paid my taxes for 40 years and still pay taxes in the UK. Also, the decision to leave affects pensions and healthcare of those that have contributed. I believe they, and me, should be entitled to vote.

Cameron was giving his vision of what Leave meant to him, his was laughed at and shot down, now you’re suggesting we should accept he was right.
This is also the man who refused to let Government Departments prepare for a no vote and why ever since the EU have an upper hand.
I’ve got no issue with a Government using the “No Deal” scenario as a statement of fact if prepared properly, but imo, it’s used as a willy waving concept.
We need to stop, start again and Leave properly without the EU dictating it all.
Like these elections on thursday, why didn’t we simply say, “No, we’re taking part as we are leaving” end of.

It wasn't just Cameron, it was senior politicians from all sides. I don't remember anyone laughing at him for saying leave the single market and the customs union.

 

[Hobbit]

Isn't the £39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?

Yes. The law lords ruled that it wasn't enforceable but the agreement was to honour it as it included shares of previously agreed projects/commitments and pensions. Also included in the agreement was the EU to pay the UK a share of the EU assets. Quite what the balance of payments is, who knows...

 

[SocketRocket]

Specifically not telling you why you voted the way you did. Clearly there are a great many people who will vote leave under almsot any circumstances. But on a close result, you don't need to stretch the imagination to see that given how the Leave option has played out, with more information, a sizeable chunk of the 17 m would have thought about things differently.

And as I said, Brexit is simply not going to work without a good and clear majority in favour of it both at the polls and in their general view of things. The country will end up on a knife edge with the European question dominating politics and elections for the next decade or more.

All I understand now that I didn't understand at the referendum is what a poor bunch of politicians we have and the level of self deceit remainers are prepared to fall to convince themselves their view is above that of the majority.

 

[Foxholer]

All I understand now that I didn't understand at the referendum is what a poor bunch of politicians we have....

Surely you were pretty much aware of that BEFORE the current chaos!

... and the level of self deceit remainers are prepared to fall to convince themselves their view is above that of the majority.

So does that mean you'd be happy to have a 2nd referendum, confident that the result would be the same?

 

[Foxholer]

...
And as I said, Brexit is simply not going to work without a good and clear majority in favour of it both at the polls and in their general view of things. The country will end up on a knife edge with the European question dominating politics and elections for the next decade or more.

More importantly, it's not going to work unless a significant number of the 'ignore the plebs, we know best' MPs that are determined to Remain change their minds! And that's going to be incredibly difficult, as May found out!

 

[Blue in Munich]

Come on, it's not that at all. It's just bringing a little good humour into a difficult subject. 😀

No, just being a WUM as usual I'm afraid.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It wasn't just Cameron, it was senior politicians from all sides. I don't remember anyone laughing at him for saying leave the single market and the customs union.

Mate, let’s be honest, everytime either side opened their mouths the other side ridiculed it as either scare mongering or Project Fear.

 

[Foxholer]

I paid my taxes for 40 years and still pay taxes in the UK. Also, the decision to leave affects pensions and healthcare of those that have contributed. I believe they, and me, should be entitled to vote.

I believe you've got 15 years of voting 'grace'. As posted earlier, too long imo - given that you have decided to 'emigrate'!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

People should only be allowed to vote in the country where they mainly reside, work and pay tax.

 

[User62651]

More importantly, it's not going to work unless a significant number of the 'ignore the plebs, we know best' MPs that are determined to Remain change their minds! And that's going to be incredibly difficult, as May found out!

The ERG Brexiteers and DUP scuppered Brexit for PM, not Remain MPs.