IanM
Journeyman Pro
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Yes Doon, I'd love to see Scotland paying it's way in a fully Federal Europe.
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
- Start date
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Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
I assume that there are certain dates that are specified in the relevant legislation that you can officially leave on. So if the 29th is off the table then the next one will be whatever we negotiate with the EU. Assuming that is the way the vote goes on Thursday and we do manage to negotiate one. And I expect if we, or indeed any other member just says sod this we are leaving when ever they fancy it, they will be in breach of several treaties etc and I expect will become liable for various penalties.
ger147
Tour Winner
Only 1 date currently specified in the legislation, 29th March.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Yes everyone knows that.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Government has more or less admitted it that if there is no deal, article 50 will be revoked and Brexit will not happen. Funny debate, SNP pouring plaudits on Tory MPs and letting anyone with their views intervening.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Where have they said that? Chances are that a no deal will be voted down and that they will then vote to ask for an extension of article 50. But between now and the 29th TMay could well come back and try a third meaningful vote with the option being vote for this or chances are there would be no Brexit. The DUP and ERG would then fall into line and once all the tory party are behind a deal it will then be a lot harder for others to oppose it as they immediately are seen as not enacting the will of the people when all the tory party wants to do that. And hey presto, deal agreed.
Even as someone who would be delighted if Brexit never happens I still am pretty sure it will. And it would not surprise me if a deal is agreed before the 29th.
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Old Skier
Tour Winner
Maybe I have just lost what little faith and optimism I had in our democratic system.
The Tory party were never in control of Brexit. The referendum was a sop to the eurosceptic faction in the Tory party and to take the wind out of UKIP's growing popularity.
To a certain extent, parliament came together when agreeing to offer the public a referendum and to triggering Article 50, but without cross-party support it didn't matter what any deal looked like it was never going to fly - unless it included unicorns.
And May and Olly Robbins have made sure the deal is as unpopular as it could be.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I’m not sure if you are agreeing with me or blaming May and Robbins (tories) only.
Either way is out of Labour’s control.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Stealing from someone cleverer than me on Twitter
'Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both. Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either. Any democracy can change its mind at any time. Else it is not a democracy.'
So the question then is how long before an electorate can change it's mind? Does the outcome of the advisory referendum have to be enacted before the electorate can change it's mind on that matter? I don't really have an answer to those questions and I'm sure there are good arguments either side. But I think it is a bit more nuanced then just claiming if we don't leave come what may on the 29th March then democracy is dead.
Foxholer
Blackballed
We'll have to disagree then!
It was a poisoned chalice whoever picked it up! The EU's position woud have been exactly the same and the negotiations would have been just as fruitless! I defy anyone to show what 'better' leaving deal Labour or even a 'combined' team (or even ERG) could have negotiated.
The only 'party' that was (is) 'totally in control' was (is) the EU's negotiating team!
My reference to the Financial Crisis was purely to demonstrate 'who gets the blame' for such disasters, nothing more. Basically, folk want/need to blame someone for negative events and those who happen to be in government at the time are the obvious target!
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I’d of had more respect for TM if she’d of told the EU were to stick their deal and showed some leadership, the last 3 months in particular have been a total waste of time, EU won’t budge, DUP won’t budge, SNP & Labour plans no good.
But not her fault and a poison chalice! Nah, she’s strung the Country along and embarrassed us.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
As I'm Welsh and not a Scot I was foolish to believe the "once in a lifetime" statement. Unless someone is about to organise a hit, I see me lasting quite a few more years.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Leadership (and speech-making) issues notwthstanding, I believe Labour have done a pretty reasonable job of 'being an opposition'! They HAVE said what they would do differently to Tories; it's just that I don't believe they would be able to have any better actual results than the Tories have! And fwiw, if Labour was in government and Tories opposition, my view would be the same (Tories would be just as ineffective as Labour)!
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
More that faith in Politicians is dead.
Politicians offered us the question and said they would enact the result.
If they can't give the majority what they voted for in, let's face it, the biggest thing in UK politics for years, then how can we trust them to do anything?
They can promise us anything in the run up to the next GE
How can we have any faith that they will do it?
Having "promised" to enact the leave vote, if they fail to do that they are slapping the faces of all those who voted to leave. Plus a number of those who voted to stay who have accepted the result.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
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No HK, dont worry, leaving is not allowed under any circumstances... No vote against them has ever been allowed to stand, just as the UK Ref will not be.
No vote against them has ever been allowed to stand, just as the UK Ref will not be.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
I would argue that Labour has less extremes with regards to Europe in the party than the Tories do. Yes Labour do have a few hard line Brexiteers that would fit in perfectly in the ERG, but I would say they they would have been more likely to come up with a more 'party wide' agreed position to go to the EU with. And chances are that it would have been a more softer version what the EU would be more likely to accept.
All complete speculation of course but I've said it before, our major failing was that we never had an agreed position on what we actually wanted and TMay has tried and failed to please too many disparate factions, mostly in an attempt to keep the Tory party from fracturing over all this.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
It is increasingly obvious that it's the members of Parliament that haven't understood what they have been voting for over the last 2 years not the members of the public that voted in the referendum.
Jamesbrown
Head Pro
No HK, dont worry, leaving is not allowed under any circumstances...
The EU need to prove that it respects the voters, and democracy by voting against an extension if and when it comes to them.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Interesting how many "no deal" agreements have been passed today in the EU Parliament adding to the many others already been made that were read out in the debate today. Funny how these aren't published anywhere in the British media.
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