Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Sweep]

I am not blaming England. That is you just jumping to your sad old tired views.
More a case of feeling sorry for England's 'locals' who don't seem to have any choice of vote but Labour or Tory.

Oh, the irony. Don’t feel sorry for England. We are fine and just thankful we don’t have the SNP to deal with down here.
You just keep yourself amused and mutter about local issues.

 

[Sweep]

There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu

To think an important decision was left in hands of people who think that

I don’t think anyone thinks that. But it might be a convenient argument for the remain camp to make.

 

[Sweep]

No it doesn’t, only 1 Party has had total control over Brexit, to compare it to what happened in the past is irrelevant and a smoke screen.

You are guessing based your opinion of Labour that they would of been just as bad, you could be 100% right or 100% wrong.

The only fact though is, the tory party were totally in control.

OK, so a party can only fulfil its current obligations. Fair enough. (BTW Labour were the only government in power in 2008 so it’s not a deflection, it’s a fair comparison).
So, as Labour have been the only party to be HM Opposition during and since the referendum, are you totally and absolutely content with the way they have conducted their role in regard to Brexit?

 

[Sweep]

Resignations were just an attempt to save face. When they realised they couldn't deliver what they'd promised to the people, Davis and Raab make a quick exit.

Nothing to do with the fact that they were sidelined by the Europe Dept in No. 10 then? And by staying they would have to take responsibility for negotiations they were not in control of?
Ok then.

 

[Deleted member 18645]

Our old favourite wee Jimmy Krankie was spouting her usual rubbish about wanting the people to decide in a vote. At least she's consistent. Every time she has a referendum go against her wishes, she carries on wanting another one.

 

[Sweep]

I really have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she has had a very difficult job but... After everything she has said about no deal being better than a bad deal which was also a Tory party manifesto policy, if Mrs May votes against her own policy and votes against no deal tonight, then she really must resign.

 

[jp5]

Couldn't deliver or weren't being allowed to try to deliver what they'd promised?

Either case leads to the first answer. What did Davis turn up for, about 4 hours in however many months he was BrexSec for?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

OK, so a party can only fulfil its current obligations. Fair enough. (BTW Labour were the only government in power in 2008 so it’s not a deflection, it’s a fair comparison).
So, as Labour have been the only party to be HM Opposition during and since the referendum, are you totally and absolutely content with the way they have conducted their role in regard to Brexit?

Were have I said at anytime I am totally and absolutely content with Labour during this process?

I voted Leave, want us to Leave, what Leave actually meant to you, me and everyone else who voted Leave is probably different, we all, however, handed that responsibility to the Government of the day.

Before we entered any negotiations she/they should have sought backing from the Party, produceing a deal that has upset so many of themselves is sheer incompetence.

She had the majority, it is the tory party who have let us down badly.

People can go about Corbyn all day long, he should of and could of been made irrelevant.

As for 2008, the GLOBAL crisis started in the US, but blame Labour, that’s easier.

 

[Sweep]

Either case leads to the first answer. What did Davis turn up for, about 4 hours in however many months he was BrexSec for?

Not his choice, I believe

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I really have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she has had a very difficult job but... After everything she has said about no deal being better than a bad deal which was also a Tory party manifesto policy, if Mrs May votes against her own policy and votes against no deal tonight, then she really must resign.

The voting of the cabinet is certainly going to be poured over tonight. Not sure how it can continue if the split is as expected. The free vote will really open up the divisions on all sides.

 

[User62651]

I don’t think anyone thinks that. But it might be a convenient argument for the remain camp to make.

'Leave means Leave'
'Brexit means Brexit'

Ring any bells? The Prime Minister repeated it often enough..... but couldn't enact it.

 

[Sweep]

Were have I said at anytime I am totally and absolutely content with Labour during this process?

I voted Leave, want us to Leave, what Leave actually meant to you, me and everyone else who voted Leave is probably different, we all, however, handed that responsibility to the Government of the day.

Before we entered any negotiations she/they should have sought backing from the Party, produceing a deal that has upset so many of themselves is sheer incompetence.

She had the majority, it is the tory party who have let us down badly.

People can go about Corbyn all day long, he should of and could of been made irrelevant.

As for 2008, the GLOBAL crisis started in the US, but blame Labour, that’s easier.

There you go again. I asked a genuine question on how you think Labour have faired in their job as HM Opposition and you answered by blaming the Tories.
I didn’t claim you have said that you were happy with Labour in Opposition. I asked you if you are happy.
If Labour is going to make a credible case to govern it has to stand on its own merits. It can’t simply say we will be dross, just not as much dross as the evil Tories.
So again. Are you happy with Labour’s role in Opposition in regard to Brexit and if not, why not? Fairly simple question to answer without deflection to be fair.

 

[Sweep]

'Leave means Leave'
'Brexit means Brexit'

Ring any bells? The Prime Minister repeated it often enough..... but couldn't enact it.

Yup, but she never said we could leave without sorting stuff out. Unless you can point me to a source that shows otherwise?
If she did, there would be no need for an implementation period, would there?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The govt might change, that is how elections work. TM also guaranteed that she would not stand as leader in another election so a different leader would be in charge for the Conservatives, different outlook, views etc.

She won an election 2yrs ago, reduced majority, but now can not get legislation through. In that situation you run another election, it is standard practice. She won a vote of confidence, despite her party having no confidence in her, because her MP's are frightened of losing their seats. Self interest took over.

TM is dominating the negotiations, notice the number of resignations from her cabinet including 2 Brexit ministers. She did not take her ministers with her, in particular those tasked with getting Brexit dealt with.

I think there are a number of people who would want to step up but history shows the first person to put the knife in rarely wins so people are standing back and waiting for her to go. Whether they are better, who knows, but I don't see that they can be worse. She really has done nothing of note since becoming PM and she has utterly failed in her one key job.

Do you really think Labour are going to unseat the Tory government? - they have the most unpopular leader in their history in charge and no other party has the strength to challenge

And because people won’t challenge TM because they either know they wouldn’t be able to change or they are bottlers because they know the process is a mess from day one

It’s clear the likes of Rees Mog etc are just sound pieces - if they feel they can do better then step up until then they show zero moral fibre

 

[Sweep]

Do you really think Labour are going to unseat the Tory government? - they have the most unpopular leader in their history in charge and no other party has the strength to challenge

And because people won’t challenge TM because they either know they wouldn’t be able to change or they are bottlers because they know the process is a mess from day one

It’s clear the likes of Rees Mog etc are just sound pieces - if they feel they can do better then step up until then they show zero moral fibre

Mrs May has already said she won’t contest another GE as leader. She had to make that concession to win the vote to stay on as leader.
So if a GE is called, May will not be leader and Boris will definitely throw his hat in the ring.

 

[User62651]

Yup, but she never said we could leave without sorting stuff out. Unless you can point me to a source that shows otherwise?
If she did, there would be no need for an implementation period, would there?

You replied to this from pauljames87 -

There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu

I'm saying many leave voting people (not PM) did think the above. She just repeated the chants to try and be popular and portray strength - populism.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There you go again. I asked a genuine question on how you think Labour have faired in their job as HM Opposition and you answered by blaming the Tories.
I didn’t claim you have said that you were happy with Labour in Opposition. I asked you if you are happy.
If Labour is going to make a credible case to govern it has to stand on its own merits. It can’t simply say we will be dross, just not as much dross as the evil Tories.
So again. Are you happy with Labour’s role in Opposition in regard to Brexit and if not, why not? Fairly simple question to answer without deflection to be fair.

I don’t care and have no interest in Labour’s role in Brexit.
It was in the tory’s remit to make them irrelevant.
You are trying to get me to say:
A. Labour have been great.
B. Labour has been bad.

Why are you or anyone else bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? If she’d of got her own house in order whether Labour behaved one way or another or I was happy or not is irrelevant.

PS If it was roles reversed I wouldn’t care about the tories role in Brexit either.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I don’t care and have no interest in Labour’s role in Brexit.
It was in the tory’s remit to make them irrelevant.
You are trying to get me to say:
A. Labour have been great.
B. Labour has been bad.

Why are you or anyone else bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? If she’d of got her own house in order whether Labour behaved one way or another or I was happy or not is irrelevant.

PS If it was roles reversed I wouldn’t care about the tories role in Brexit either.

#whataboutery

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Our old favourite wee Jimmy Krankie was spouting her usual rubbish about wanting the people to decide in a vote. At least she's consistent. Every time she has a referendum go against her wishes, she carries on wanting another one.

Really, viewed from your eyes perhaps but look a bit deeper and you will see that the EU referendum result was a significant boost to Scottish Independence support.
Nicola is playing a canny game at the moment, she just needs to do nothing but twiddle her thumbs, throw in a few well chosen words and watch the UK Labour and Tory parties self implode.
I still think the best way out of this mucking fuddle is for NI and Scotland to remain in the EU and place the UK border between Solway and Tweed.

 

[drdel]

The vote tonight only takes leaving without a deal on March 29th of the table - we could leave without a deal on the 30th or thereafter !!