Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 21784]

Will there be much point in another general election or referendum? Neither party sticks to their manifesto, and referendums aren’t respected.

I’m all for a second referendum providing those that voted the first time round are to be only ones to vote again.
Only then when will there be a true measure of what was wanted 3 years ago now people are “more informed”, and “know what they’re voting for”.

No red buses for remainers to claim that we was lied to allowed.

I think after this sham, I won’t vote again. None of these votes affect me anyway and I’ll set fire to my conservative membership card.

Referendums are pointless. It was never legally binding so this “will of the people” rubbish branded about means nothing. It doesn’t need to be respected at all as it’s not like an election where one party gets in legally on that it was just basically an opinion poll

 

[GaryK]

Referendums are pointless. It was never legally binding so this “will of the people” rubbish branded about means nothing. It doesn’t need to be respected at all as it’s not like an election where one party gets in legally on that it was just basically an opinion poll

As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at the moment.

 

[Sweep]

People believing this (not saying socket does but many do) is half the problem. They don’t understand how we can’t just walk out on 29th March and things need to be agreed regardless even without a deal. Spent how many years getting agreements in place .. can’t undo all that work in the space of 2 years let alone 2 weeks which is what they have left

We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position.

 

[Sweep]

I expect that’s what is the likely response - both the EU and HoC I believe don’t want to leave the EU without a deal - or indeed the EU so the longer it goes on the more frustrated people will become and the more people will have had enough of the whole thing and a second vote will happen

Right from the beginning it for me seemed a vote too crucial for the public - it should have been the MP’s we voted for making this choice - it’s a complete embarrassing shambles and we must be a laughing to the world


I don’t ever see the rift healing - this vote has split the country and no matter what happens there will always be the split and will be get wider and result in more bad feelings. For a country that’s normally such a positive hard working country at the moment it’s a depressing place to be - a lot of people worried about the future and there are going to be a lot of finger pointing etc if it’s just get worse.

Can anyone really see things improving dramatically over the next 5/10 years ? For me there is far too much arrogance and bad feeling at the moment

You really think, after everything that has happened since the referendum, that we should have left it to our MP’s to make this choice? Really? What is it about our MP’s exactly that inspires you with such confidence?
Did you / would you have said the same when the public voted to join? I seriously doubt it.
I suggest that as a remainer you only regret the public being asked because they delivered an answer you don’t like. That is democracy. You only hold this view now because you know our MP’s are remain biased and would never have voted to leave. But guess what? It’s our country. It’s our decision and we made it. The very people charged with delivering the will of the people have failed us and their duty.
Our MP’s have all been willing to embrace democracy when it gets them elected to their very privileged and important positions. Yet so happy to wash their hands of it when it gives them a job to do they don’t like.
It’s our MP’s, the very people you say should have made this decision that have made this country a laughing stock, not the British people.
Let’s be clear. The public were asked a question. They delivered their answer. It is our MP’s who have messed this up, through their arrogance, posturing, political grandstanding and self / party preservation. Do not lay any blame for this on the British public.

 

[Sweep]

The problem with that plan is that England will probably just vote the same Tories back in to lead a UK Government.

Don’t blame England because Scotland has marginalised itself by voting for local parties on local issues in UK wide elections.

 

[Sweep]

As parliament can't seem to get a majority for any option to take us forwards I think any calls for a 2nd referendum want to put the options we currently have to the vote, not rerun the one from 2016.

So not have the option to remain on the ballot?

 

[Deleted member 21784]

As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at
the moment.

Another one of mays failings was trying to show she was clever and putting it into law so she could be seen to be “respecting the will of the people” not realising it isn’t as easy as it seemed to leave

 

[Deleted member 21784]

We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position.

Yes we can “walk out” but we won’t be out of the eu on the 29th March.. we won’t have cut all ties and be done even if we walked out there would be months of sorting out before we were “out”

 

[Hacker Khan]

So not have the option to remain on the ballot?

If the principle of any further referendum is to find out what we want to do now then it depends if that is one of the potential options available to us now.

Just because anything was an option on the original referendum does not automatically preclude it from being an option now. But if it is felt it is not a viable option to get us out of the current stalemate then no.

 

[Hacker Khan]

As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at the moment.

You are correct so they would just make amendments to the legislation to extend article 50 (if the EU agreed which is another kettle of fish).

 

[Beezerk]

Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.

 

[Hacker Khan]

We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position.

Yes we can but if a withdrawal agreement is not approved by Parliament by then then that will mean leaving with out a deal. And parliament is voting on today and Thursday to effectively try and prevent that from happening.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.

When brexit isn’t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least

 

[Imurg]

When brexit isn’t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least

Hasn't that been the case for some considerable amount of time..?

 

[Beezerk]

When brexit isn’t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least

A Ref 2 supporting Labour government with Corbyn at the helm and Abbot in the cabinet scares the hell out of me. For me that's a far worse option than No Deal.

 

[Scoobiesnax]

For the first time in my life I will be looking to spoil my vote if a general election is called by writing "NONE they're all bloody useless"

A Ref 2 supporting Labour government with Corbyn at the helm and Abbot in the cabinet scares the hell out of me. For me that's a far worse option than No Deal.

This is exactly why I'll strategically vote for whoever I believe will keep him out of power. The tories may be incompetent but it scares me to think what Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell could do to the UK.

 

[Hobbit]

Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.

Just do what the youngsters do. Stay in bed, especially if it’s raining.

 

[Kellfire]

I’m glad MPs continue to do their best for the country and doing all they can to bring about a second referendum, though I do think it will be fruitless.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Don’t blame England because Scotland has marginalised itself by voting for local parties on local issues in UK wide elections.

I am not blaming England. That is you just jumping to your sad old tired views.
More a case of feeling sorry for England's 'locals' who don't seem to have any choice of vote but Labour or Tory.

 

[bobmac]

Al Murray for PM