Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 16999]

Sorry but I can see no mention of Labour in your post I quoted.

Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.

 

[Hobbit]

Here's a thought; how many people in here have walked into a car showroom and told the salesman we would not leave until we had a deal on that car? I wonder what the salesman would do with the discount rates he was authorised to give if he knew you wouldn't walk away from a deal? I wonder what price he'd offer you for your car if he knew that you wouldn't walk away?

Make your own mind up on what is the best way to negotiate. Make your own mind up on who, both at Westminster and in Brussels is negotiating in good faith, or hasn't got their own agenda outside of what is the best course for all sides.

 

[SocketRocket]

Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.

I replied to your post not his. Look, i am attempting to debate the no deal situation with you, no need for the sarcastic emcom is there.

Anyhow thats my view on taking no deal off the table and what other options there may be.

 

[SocketRocket]

I blame each and everyone of them, are they not meant to represent their constituents?
As soon as the result was known they should of all come together and formulate a plan, not bury their heads and wait 2 years!

Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I replied to your post not his. Look, i am attempting to debate the no deal situation with you, no need for the sarcastic emcom is there.

Anyhow thats my view on taking no deal off the table and what other options there may be.

It maybe ok to you for you to understand your post and its intention, but I read it in the context of sweeps post and my answer to him, look at it another way, read sweeps post, read my reply and then change your name to sweep and read that reply, it doesn’t make sense in that context.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.

But they didn’t talk to each other or across the floor and look at the mess.

 

[Hobbit]

Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.

Which highlights why Westminster is in such a mess at present. Just about everyone wants to be a chief. Imagine any business anywhere in the world where the shop floor does its own thing instead of following the production plans.

And they're all working in the best interests of the country... yeah, of course they are.

 

[SocketRocket]

But they didn’t talk to each other or across the floor and look at the mess.

I don't believe thats the case. As I explained its the job of the executive to govern, they may listen to others but its their job to set out a plan that puts their manifesto into effect. OK lets mention Labour, their front bench have not acted in the national interest IMO, they have a job to hold the government to account but in the case of Brexit they have been playing games whereby they have not made their stance clear enough for anyone to understand, their six tests were impossible to be achieved without staying in the EU, Corbyn has only been interested in using Brexit to progress his political career and frustrated the task of leaving the EU while giving lip service to supporting it.

I say again, you cannot expect back benchers to form a government plan although thats what we are experiencing now and look what a dogs dinner that has become. In such times parliament needs to respect the democratic will of the people, stop playing mind games and work together genuinely to achieve the Brexit they deserve.

Before you say it I am also critical of Conservatives who are frustrating the process.

 

[Sweep]

And I don’t disagree, but the deal TM has currently was voted down, ie “the bad deal” if she gets no more movement are you suggesting we should accept it or walk away with No Deal.

If that’s the situation, and again I’d suggest it’s only a few MP’s who want that, we all lose.

If she comes back with the same deal, I think we all know what will happen.
No, I don’t think we should sign a bad deal. As I said, I like the “no deal is better than a bad deal option”.
As for a second referendum, I believe we should not go anywhere near it. The repercussions are dreadful. TBH I cannot believe that anyone is seriously contemplating it, especially those in Parliament and government. But then I never thought I would see political times like this.
Let’s be honest, the only reason a second referendum is even talked about is because some people like Starmer, Grieve, Soubry just cannot accept the referendum result, so they want to overturn it. Labour have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. As a democratic party they are actually adopting an undemocratic policy in one of the most important issues of our time.
What seems to be being missed is that the day the UK leaves is not necessarily the end of the matter. We could leave on March 29 with no deal and still do a deal later. In fact the EU may well be keener to talk then, when they see all their UK trade disappearing.
I wonder why no-one in Parliament is mentioning that right now.
So, to answer your question, yes, I believe if she comes back with a bad deal we should reject it and leave with no deal. Absolutely.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I don't believe thats the case. As I explained its the job of the executive to govern, they may listen to others but its their job to set out a plan that puts their manifesto into effect. OK lets mention Labour, their front bench have not acted in the national interest IMO, they have a job to hold the government to account but in the case of Brexit they have been playing games whereby they have not made their stance clear enough for anyone to understand, their six tests were impossible to be achieved without staying in the EU, Corbyn has only been interested in using Brexit to progress his political career and frustrated the task of leaving the EU while giving lip service to supporting it.

I say again, you cannot expect back benchers to form a government plan although thats what we are experiencing now and look what a dogs dinner that has become. In such times parliament needs to respect the democratic will of the people, stop playing mind games and work together genuinely to achieve the Brexit they deserve.

Before you say it I am also critical of Conservatives who are frustrating the process.

Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I can’t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like I’ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people don’t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position I’d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.

 

[Sweep]

That everybody lied and nobody had an actual plan!

To be fair I knew they were lying and that leaving would take some planning.
What I didn’t know was that there would be such a backlash from remainers and that feelings would be so high and entrenched. I would have never believed that people would be so ready to ditch democracy for so little. I remain staggered.
I didn’t expect our government to be so cynical is their negotiations or to be so weak.
But none of this impacts on the central issue. I knew what I was voting for.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

If she comes back with the same deal, I think we all know what will happen.
No, I don’t think we should sign a bad deal. As I said, I like the “no deal is better than a bad deal option”.
As for a second referendum, I believe we should not go anywhere near it. The repercussions are dreadful. TBH I cannot believe that anyone is seriously contemplating it, especially those in Parliament and government. But then I never thought I would see political times like this.
Let’s be honest, the only reason a second referendum is even talked about is because some people like Starmer, Grieve, Soubry just cannot accept the referendum result, so they want to overturn it. Labour have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. As a democratic party they are actually adopting an undemocratic policy in one of the most important issues of our time.
What seems to be being missed is that the day the UK leaves is not necessarily the end of the matter. We could leave on March 29 with no deal and still do a deal later. In fact the EU may well be keener to talk then, when they see all their UK trade disappearing.
I wonder why no-one in Parliament is mentioning that right now.
So, to answer your question, yes, I believe if she comes back with a bad deal we should reject it and leave with no deal. Absolutely.

No issues with any of that, I don’t want a 2nd Referendum, but if we do go down that road I believe the biggest fuss will come from a very small minority, almost the hardliners, I think the turnout would be a lot less because with the mess were in people have had enough, they are fed up with the whole issue and will vote whichever way they think it will go away the quickest. Sad indeed.

 

[SocketRocket]

Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I can’t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like I’ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people don’t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position I’d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.

A cross party consensus doesn't exist, labour insist on us staying in a customs union which in effect keeps us tied to the EU. Please explain how this circle can be squared.

 

[Sweep]

Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.

You are insinuating I blame Labour for the state of the negotiations. I do not. I am against them threatening to adopt a policy of a second referendum and I said they have to be responsible for their own actions. I thought I had been clear on that.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

To be fair I knew they were lying and that leaving would take some planning.
What I didn’t know was that there would be such a backlash from remainers and that feelings would be so high and entrenched. I would have never believed that people would be so ready to ditch democracy for so little. I remain staggered.
I didn’t expect our government to be so cynical is their negotiations or to be so weak.
But none of this impacts on the central issue. I knew what I was voting for.

I took my time and tried to see past the hot air, but come on, for a vote that was so close, we’d of had the same type of people and reaction if the vote had gone the other way.
Far too important to expect people who voted remain to walk away and stay silent.

 

[Sweep]

It maybe ok to you for you to understand your post and its intention, but I read it in the context of sweeps post and my answer to him, look at it another way, read sweeps post, read my reply and then change your name to sweep and read that reply, it doesn’t make sense in that context.

He’s not changing his name to Sweep. That’s my name. I was here first 😀

 

[Deleted member 16999]

A cross party consensus doesn't exist, labour insist on us staying in a customs union which in effect keeps us tied to the EU. Please explain how this circle can be squared.

That’s now, all these cross party disagreements should of been hammered out in private before we started negotiating, Labour may or may not have given ground, but we’ll never know, all this is being played out in public and the only winner is the EU.

 

[Sweep]

Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I can’t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like I’ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people don’t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position I’d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.

Re the bold bit. You appear to be contradicting yourself

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You are insinuating I blame Labour for the state of the negotiations. I do not. I am against them threatening to adopt a policy of a second referendum and I said they have to be responsible for their own actions. I thought I had been clear on that.

No, never meant to insinuate that, I’m on about the mess since the deal.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Re the bold bit. You appear to be contradicting yourself

Because I go back to my very simplistic view as someone who voted leave and is a Labour supporter, TM and the tories could of made Labour’s stance, policies, pov, etc irrelevant.
The focus in the media is on Labour when it should be on TM getting a deal.