Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity.

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.

The point he was making related to the jobs that have been taken away already by the EU offering subsidies to business so they can move location to other countries with cheaper labour costs. That bumpy road was not due to Brexit but seems as though its not so bad as it was not the nasty Tories doing it.

 

[bluewolf]

Maybe you miss my point. The EU have created a climate that makes it beneficial to move work from Northern Europe to Southern Europe. All of that happened whilst the UK was fully engaged in Europe. Staying in doesn't guarantee employment. Leaving may well lead to an increase in speed of job losses but job losses would happen anyway as companies relocate to where cheap labour is, and tax breaks and grants make it doubly beneficial. That is the economic balancing I'm on about.

My old employer, and probably many more, took advantage of those incentives years ago. Their profits haven't dipped at all but many people in the UK lost their jobs. There is no loyalty in business, and business leaders will up sticks if and when it suits with no second glance at whatever the political choices people make.

I think we've bypassed each other's points. My only question was "How many job losses, as a direct result of a Hard Brexit, are people happy to accept?" I'm not referencing an orderly exit from the EU. Ive accepted that we're leaving. I've not asked for a 2nd referendum.

 

[Hobbit]

How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we weren’t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.

Does our govt create incentives and tax breaks in the Czech Republic? Does our govt give hundreds of millions of EU grants to companies? Did the EU block cheap Chinese imports of steel? Yes they did when Germany squealed but it was 4 months too late for Teesside.

You're as bad as Hogan with EU good UK bad attitude. Open your eyes and at least be balanced in the debate. My original post in this part of the discussion started with I agree with you and Wolfie but... the EU doesn't give unicorns to the UK, only the poorer Southern European countries.

 

[MegaSteve]

How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we weren’t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.

Should Westminster have got into a subsidy bidding war with Brussels?

 

[Hobbit]

I think we've bypassed each other's points. My only question was "How many job losses, as a direct result of a Hard Brexit, are people happy to accept?" I'm not referencing an orderly exit from the EU. Ive accepted that we're leaving. I've not asked for a 2nd referendum.

At least you've accepted the UK is leaving, I'm still hoping it won't happen.

Any job loss is unacceptable but it will happen. Its not just the person of the shop floor that suffers horrendously, as you've experienced. Where is the Corporation Tax from that shrinking, disappearing industry? Where are the jobs for the service industry that supported the company that's just folded? It will be horrendous. And the UK is relying on a good govt to manage the fallout... that'll go well.

 

[bluewolf]

The point he was making related to the jobs that have been taken away already by the EU offering subsidies to business so they can move location to other countries with cheaper labour costs. That bumpy road was not due to Brexit but seems as though its not so bad as it was not the nasty Tories doing it.

Did they force them to move? Did they tailor the subsidies specifically for that business? Or did the Business take advantage of an existing deal. Who do you blame when big business avoids paying tax? The business or the Government for leaving the loophole.
These businesses didn't have to move. They made the choice. Blame them.

 

[SocketRocket]

How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we weren’t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.

You just dont seem to understand business. Governments dont make businesses, other than public sector the vast majority of jobs are produced by small businesses, people that take chances and employ others. Do you think the EU cares anything about these small businesses or their employees.

Whether we are in the EU or out of it we have to stand on our own two feet as a country but if you think the precious EU would shed a tear if your job was moved abroad helped with a wedge of EU money which probably came from our tax payers, then think again

 

[bluewolf]

At least you've accepted the UK is leaving, I'm still hoping it won't happen.

Any job loss is unacceptable but it will happen. Its not just the person of the shop floor that suffers horrendously, as you've experienced. Where is the Corporation Tax from that shrinking, disappearing industry? Where are the jobs for the service industry that supported the company that's just folded? It will be horrendous. And the UK is relying on a good govt to manage the fallout... that'll go well.

We're in complete agreement. It's going to be terrible for several years. Just as my kids are entering the job market. Is Brexit worth that? Not for me. Not even 1%.

Still, if I had a few hundred million quid spare I could always short the market and make billions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Does our govt create incentives and tax breaks in the Czech Republic? Does our govt give hundreds of millions of EU grants to companies? Did the EU block cheap Chinese imports of steel? Yes they did when Germany squealed but it was 4 months too late for Teesside.

You're as bad as Hogan with EU good UK bad attitude. Open your eyes and at least be balanced in the debate. My original post in this part of the discussion started with I agree with you and Wolfie but... the EU doesn't give unicorns to the UK, only the poorer Southern European countries.

Do you not blame the businesses for doing it as opposed to the EU ?

The UK certainly doesn’t mind spending money around their “financial” services

It just seems to me that anything that has gone wrong over the past 30nyears etc people now seem quite quickly to point the finger at the EU - it seems our successive governments since the 70’s who were extremely culpable are getting away with it hence why people want to put their faith in them

 

[SocketRocket]

Did they force them to move? Did they tailor the subsidies specifically for that business? Or did the Business take advantage of an existing deal. Who do you blame when big business avoids paying tax? The business or the Government for leaving the loophole.
These businesses didn't have to move. They made the choice. Blame them.

I don't blame anyone from avoiding tax as long as they pay the lawful amount. I would not wish to pay more tax than I needed to.

Yes, the business probably did take advantage of an existing deal but why was the deal made available, was it to encourage them to relocate to areas with cheaper wage rates and poorer economies. If you believe this is OK then you cant complain about the job losses.

 

[Hobbit]

Do you not blame the businesses for doing it as opposed to the EU ?

The UK certainly doesn’t mind spending money around their “financial” services

It just seems to me that anything that has gone wrong over the past 30nyears etc people now seem quite quickly to point the finger at the EU - it seems our successive governments since the 70’s who were extremely culpable are getting away with it hence why people want to put their faith in them

If you have a business making virtually zero profit in a tough market and the Czech Republic came to you and offered to cover building costs, start up costs and tax breaks AND you'd cut your wage bill by 70% what would you do? With a business head on what would you do? You'd be a massive fool not to take advantage.

Tata Steel moved to The Netherlands on the back of huge grants and tax breaks, building a brand new furnace, not one that was due a relining. The UK govt were approached and asked if they could match those grants. EU law forbids those sorts of subsidies to established businesses. The UK couldn't match those incentives from a legal standpoint.

Yes I blame the EU for creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move, using your money and mine, whilst the member country has its hands tied behind its back. We, if we're lucky enough to keep our jobs, then contribute to the benefits those out of workers now need AND continue, via EU grants that is also our money, to subsidise the business that's moved.

As for your glib statement about the UK spending money on financial services. You've already tried that one and I pointed out that it was a Canadian businessman that brokered a private deal with finance houses for Canary Wharf. There were also tax breaks allowed, not money spent, because these were start-ups, just like Tata Steel moving to The Netherlands.

The company I worked for is German. Their German base has also shrunk as the company has used EU incentives to move work elsewhere. All the Northern European governments are suffering the same whilst taking advantages of the breaks to bring in new business. Its a flawed business model in that its cyclical. Manufacturing disappears to be replaced with service industries.

EDIT: and its a drive to the bottom, or at least part way there. If one country makes £100m, and another country £20m and there is a balancing of economies, you will end up with two economies of £60m. That's very simplistic but as there's only so much buying power and all that's happening is what is made in one country then get made cheaper in another. The price to the customer stays the same, or drops slightly(sadly I know this as a fact), but the social care costs in country A rise.

 

[bluewolf]

I don't blame anyone from avoiding tax as long as they pay the lawful amount. I would not wish to pay more tax than I needed to.

Yes, the business probably did take advantage of an existing deal but why was the deal made available, was it to encourage them to relocate to areas with cheaper wage rates and poorer economies. If you believe this is OK then you cant complain about the job losses.

I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted.
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?"
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other.
Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one.
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.

 

[SocketRocket]

I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted.
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?"
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other.
Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one.
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.

Please explain what you perceive my preferred position to be regarding us leaving the EU. I ask this as you seem to be making arguments based on some assumption.

 

[bluewolf]

Please explain what you perceive my preferred position to be regarding us leaving the EU. I ask this as you seem to be making arguments based on some assumption.

I haven't referenced your preferred position at all tbh. I'm not sure what you're reading to suggest that?

From reading your posts, I'd hazard a guess that you'd prefer a good deal but if that wasn't available then you'd gladly accept No Deal in its place.

Unfortunately, I very much doubt that there is a good deal. Or at least not one good enough. There are too many people wanting too many things on either side of the negotiation. There are too many red lines. Too much intransigence. And, unfortunately, on our side of the negotiation, too many snouts in the trough.

 

[Hobbit]

I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted.
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?"
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other.
Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one.
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.

On the highlighted sentence; the EU is protectionist to imports from outside the EU, and in effect protects itself from cheap labour from those countries. However, what protection is it giving Northern European countries by creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move within the EU? What protection is it giving workers in those countries? If it was increasing the manufacturing base, and incentivising exports to outside the EU, BRILLIANT, but its not. Its creating bigger problems in the established countries in the north. Ergo, the EU is to blame.

 

[IanM]

My daughters plans to expand her company into Canada and SA this year have been shelved due to Brexit.
Gutted for her as she has put so much work into it.

...or her perceived impact of Brexit? Or is this another tall tale?

How long have Canada and South Africa been in the EU? How will the UK leaving (which it won't) stop trade with those countries exactly? Do tell

 

[bluewolf]

On the highlighted sentence; the EU is protectionist to imports from outside the EU, and in effect protects itself from cheap labour from those countries. However, what protection is it giving Northern European countries by creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move within the EU? What protection is it giving workers in those countries? If it was increasing the manufacturing base, and incentivising exports to outside the EU, BRILLIANT, but its not. Its creating bigger problems in the established countries in the north. Ergo, the EU is to blame.

So then, who was to blame when my old factory upped sticks and moved to Sheffield to take advantage of the government grants available and the cheaper workforce?

 

[Hobbit]

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Just a quick trawl, no doubt some of it might be open to some questioning.

 

[Hobbit]

So then, who was to blame when my old factory upped sticks and moved to Sheffield to take advantage of the government grants available and the cheaper workforce?

Since when has two wrongs made a right?

But do you agree that the EU is wrong to incentivise as it does?

 

[bluewolf]

Since when has two wrongs made a right?

But do you agree that the EU is wrong to incentivise as it does?

Tricky question. Would I prefer they didn't? Yes, definitely. Is it wrong? Let me think about it.

With regards to the 2 wrongs.
Plenty of people I worked with blamed the Company for moving. Very few blamed the Government. Those same people now blame the EU for companies moving. Why? The only difference is distance.