Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

Just saying that the company could have been saved if the government had wanted to do so and in doing so could have avoided the mess that Carillion and it's employees, suppliers and partners are suffering. I'm not trying to excuse Carillion of bad or malpractice.

The govt of the day saved British Leyland for years, and that didn't work. They saved British Rail for years, and that didn't work. And they saved British Steel for years, and you've guessed it... when a govt steps in the company and the unions think they're bomb proof. As painful as it was the right outcome has been achieved.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The question has been answered in great detail, you however seem unable to absorb the data and keep reiterating the question. It becomes very difficult not to question your ability to comprehend information and partake in reasoned debate.

OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please, anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk. Just one. Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave. Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.

 

[Hobbit]

Just saying that the company could have been saved if the government had wanted to do so and in doing so could have avoided the mess that Carillion and it's employees, suppliers and partners are suffering. I'm not trying to excuse Carillion of bad or malpractice.

Also, the govt funded the completion of the Birmingham hospitals project in April 2018, and the Royal Liverpool hospitals Trust in Sept 2018. The govt paid out almost £800m in 6 months. Sounds like the govt at least paid for the completion of the work after Carillion went bump.

 

[robinthehood]

OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please, anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk. Just one. Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave. Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.

You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.🤣🤣

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

People voted for Leave, many for various reasons. For some it was immigration, for others it was to end a creeping federalism and so on and so on. If you want to criticise anyone for what sort of deal they want you need to direct that at the politicians. The Man-in-street Leaver didn't vote for the things you've listed, only to Leave. Nothing else was on the ballot paper.

Which is the argument for a further vote...

 

[Hobbit]

OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please, anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk. Just one. Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave. Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.

What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + €171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.

 

[Hobbit]

Which is the argument for a further vote...

Rubbish! The man in the street voted to Leave. Let's make it best of 3, or best of 5. You're being silly.

 

[Hobbit]

You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.🤣🤣

Isn't it past your bed time?

See you avoided answering my previous post. amazing how you always go missing when someone pins you down.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.🤣🤣

If you can get someone in the UK to be manufacturing these vacuum cleaners...

 

[robinthehood]

Isn't it past your bed time?

See you avoided answering my previous post. amazing how you always go missing when someone pins you down.

Lol pinned me down. I just can't be arsed it's such a waste of time, I'm too busy relocating to Luxembourg.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + €171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.

I see that. Though surely it is the case that under WTO rules if we apply zero tariffs to certain imported meat products then outside of trade deals that zero tariff has to apply to all imports of such meat products from every country with exports targetted at the UK - and how specific are the tariffs in respect of the meat products the tariffs are applied to? I don't know. So for instance I can imagine that a category of tariffs under WTO rules could be 'processed meat products' - now that would cover products not produced in the UK but could also include UK produced product. So taking back control under WTO rules could actually mean having to adhere to tariff categories and rates determined by a body on which the UK has no representation whatsoever.

Also - and just wondering - if we cut import tariffs to such meat products does the tax man lose out on the take from VAT on these products? Dunno.

But OK. So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source. You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales. But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Rubbish! The man in the street voted to Leave. Let's make it best of 3, or best of 5. You're being silly.

No - honestly I don't think that it's being silly. There has to be a way out of this mess and the government and parliament do not seem to be able to find it. We'll see on that in the next two weeks.

 

[Tashyboy]

You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.🤣🤣

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Tashyboy]

No - honestly I don't think that it's being silly. There has to be a way out of this mess and the government and parliament do not seem to be able to find it. We'll see on that in the next two weeks.

Out of interest, I would love to know your views on who is to blame for this mess.

 

[Tashyboy]

Lol pinned me down. I just can't be arsed it's such a waste of time, I'm too busy relocating to Luxembourg.

äddi

 

[Hobbit]

I see that. Though surely it is the case that under WTO rules if we apply zero tariffs to certain imported meat products then outside of trade deals that zero tariff has to apply to all imports of such meat products from every country with exports targetted at the UK - and how specific are the tariffs in respect of the meat products the tariffs are applied to? I don't know. So for instance I can imagine that a category of tariffs under WTO rules could be 'processed meat products' - now that would cover products not produced in the UK but could also include UK produced product. So taking back control under WTO rules could actually mean having to adhere to tariff categories and rates determined by a body on which the UK has no representation whatsoever.

Also - and just wondering - if we cut import tariffs to such meat products does the tax man lose out on the take from VAT on these products? Dunno.

But OK. So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source. You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales. But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.

Just a quick one. VAT goes to the EU coffers. Drop that and everyone saves 20% + the tariffs. Imagine saving 35%.... that's some pay rise.

 

[robinthehood]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

No they make more of a shush

 

[ColchesterFC]

But OK. So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source. You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales. But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.

Is anyone else looking out for the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse riding over the horizon? It seems as though SiLH has just admitted that there MIGHT be one upside to leaving the EU.

 

[Pants]

Just a thought. How about those with their crystal balls who have spent endless hours telling us of the gloom and doom that will befall us when we leave the EU, using those same balls to tell us what the mid to long term effects of staying in the EU would bring.

Things like future contributions, rebates, joining the Euro, federal state, other countries wanting to leave, budget agreements, European armed force, probable collapse of the experiment, etc, etc.

Come on. If you really can tell us The Facts and back them up, some leavers might be persuaded to change their minds. Until then, crystal ball gazing and opinions have no real sway (imho obviously).

Given the absolute clarity of recent speeches by EU Leadership on the route the EU will be taking, maybe some comment by the Remainers on here is due, about why we need to abandon our sovereignty in favour of being in a fully Federal Europe.

Nearly 24 hours now and not a single remainer has been able to bring themselves to rise to the challenge. Just like the politicians that they decry, they avoid uncomfortable questions and instead carry on pointing out where they think others have got it wrong.

Or, I suppose, their crystal balls might need a Euro in the meter to clear the clouds .........

 

[SocketRocket]

OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please, anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk. Just one. Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave. Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.

Serious question. Why are you posting on this thread?