Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please, anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk. Just one. Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave. Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.

The main benefit will be control of our own destiny, its not just economics, oh no, it was always more than that. Short term will always be the difficult period in any change to circumstances although what is it that you fear so much, the government will want a good free trade arrangement with the EU and what ever you fear this will happen, it may be after a transition period or after a clean Brexit, who knows at this stage as our politicians play out their silly self edifying games. The monetry gains may not be imediate but who knows at this stage as the negotiations continue. You dont know any more than I how the politics will pan out so please can you stop these rather unnecessary ameture dramatics and imagineing it can change the path of things outside your control now.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + €171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.

Woopee woo we can buy cheap American chlorinated chicken and Brazilian beef bred on cleared Amazonian forests.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Out of interest, I would love to know your views on who is to blame for this mess.

Have you been living under a rock for the last 5 years.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

So let's just imagine that there is a second vote and let's also imagine that the result is to Remain.

How does that "get us out of this mess", to quote one prolific poster?

Do we assume that the Leave supporters are going to quietly accept the result in a way that the Remainers cannot?

Those of us who aren't capable of accepting the first result, whether or not it was the one they wanted, and supporting efforts to ensure the best possible outcome are not mature enough for democracy.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

A bit of sobering clarity about what is and is not possible before 29th March

https://twitter.com/akulith

 

[Foxholer]

Just a quick one. VAT goes to the EU coffers. Drop that and everyone saves 20% + the tariffs. Imagine saving 35%.... that's some pay rise.

Can you please point to a source that confirms this? As far as I know, it simply goes to HMRC coffers. Joining the EEC required VAT to be introduced for consistency across Member ?States but I don't believe the revenue goes to the EU coffers.

Btw. Your arithmetic is also flawed.

 

[Tashyboy]

Have you been living under a rock for the last 5 years.

Let me try and be a bit more precise,
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it.

Quite simple really 👍

 

[Tashyboy]

Woopee woo we can buy cheap American chlorinated chicken and Brazilian beef bred on cleared Amazonian forests.

As against the cancer rich bacon we already have, yup that's another arguement you won hands down.

 

[IanM]

Let me try and be a bit more precise,
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it.

Quite simple really 👍

By Jove you've nailed it. We have politicans being paid to hand over control to the EU and 48% of the public brainswashed into thinking the world doesnt exist without the EU!
Being out of the EU is not the same as the shambles the establishment are wilfully making the process of leaving look.

 

[Slime]

I've had it for two and a half years and just heartily sick to the teeth of it - but I'm not going to stop doing whatever I can to prevent happening something that I feel will be severely damaging to the future lives and prospects of my children as well as damaging to the UK and UK society as a whole.

But you can't do anything about it because the nation has made it's decision, it just happens to be contrary to your's.

 

[Tashyboy]

By Jove you've nailed it. We have politicans being paid to hand over control to the EU and 48% of the public brainswashed into thinking the world doesnt exist without the EU!
Being out of the EU is not the same as the shambles the establishment are wilfully making the process of leaving look.

Ian I could of gone on and on, but the thread is going round and round in ever decreasing circles. At least until the vote in Parliment as to whether the deal is rejected or accepted. Then we wil have something else to argue over, ie if the vote is rejected by a majority of 5, do we have another vote. 😉

 

[Dando]

But you can't do anything about it because the nation has made it's decision, it just happens to be contrary to your's.

The only thing he can do is bore us all to tears with his non stop whinging

 

[IanM]

Ian I could of gone on and on, but the thread is going round and round in ever decreasing circles. At least until the vote in Parliment as to whether the deal is rejected or accepted. Then we wil have something else to argue over, ie if the vote is rejected by a majority of 5, do we have another vote. 😉

Vote in Parliament is funny... as no one wants any of the outcomes!
1) Leavers don't want May's (so called) Deal as they say is is a a fudge
2) Remainers don't want any deal regardless of content - they just wanna stay in.

Meanwhile Corbyn just wants to be PM so he can reform the Soviet Union, starting in North London Ok, bit of license there!

 

[Hobbit]

The 2nd vote that's been bandied around; who's asking for it? Is it Remainers? Is it Leavers, or is it a mixture of both? Should it be a vote on accepting May's deal or going straight to Leave with no deal? Should Remain be a 3rd option on the voting slip?

Remain/Leave has already been decided, but as has been said on a number of occasions, people are better informed now. But being cynical, who is saying people are better informed now? Is it only Remainers saying the people are better informed now?

At the end of the day, the original decision was Leave. The Tories have made an absolute Horlicks of it, but that doesn't take away the fact that the vote was to Leave. But as others have said, is it wise to Leave when were governed by such a bunch of incompetents? Or a GE would bring in the possibility of the UK being the next Venezuela, maybe. Maybe it is time for a radical change for the next 5 years but is it time for a generational change?

 

[Foxholer]

The 2nd vote that's been bandied around; who's asking for it? Is it Remainers? Is it Leavers, or is it a mixture of both? Should it be a vote on accepting May's deal or going straight to Leave with no deal? Should Remain be a 3rd option on the voting slip?

Remain/Leave has already been decided, but as has been said on a number of occasions, people are better informed now. But being cynical, who is saying people are better informed now? Is it only Remainers saying the people are better informed now?

At the end of the day, the original decision was Leave. The Tories have made an absolute Horlicks of it, but that doesn't take away the fact that the vote was to Leave. But as others have said, is it wise to Leave when were governed by such a bunch of incompetents? Or a GE would bring in the possibility of the UK being the next Venezuela, maybe. Maybe it is time for a radical change for the next 5 years but is it time for a generational change?

I believe that a second vote is only being promoted by those who 'didn't like' the result of the first one. That's an invalid reason for one imo. The only 'further' referendum on the subject I would consider 'valid' would be a 'This Deal vs No Deal' one.

I don't believe Labour being the negotiating team would have made any significant difference to the quality of negotiations - at least, certainly not to the advantage of the UK. As I've stated several times, it was/is a poisoned chalice for whoever took responsibility for them.

 

[drdel]

So the argument for a second vote is based on the belief that there is a greater awareness of what will change among the great unwashed - judging by the repetitive posts over the last 2+years from the ardent Remainers on this site who want a 2nd vote: I see no evidence that their arguments have changed and so I think their rhetoric is baseless and the call disproved.

 

[bladeplayer]

But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?

 

[Fade and Die]

But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?

But what would the question be?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Let me try and be a bit more precise,
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it.

Quite simple really 👍

Yes as simple as my question was......it is pretty obvious to most enlightened people that all on your list are all to blame. [except the EU]
BTW you missed out UKIP.
It must also be one of the rare occasions when a Unionist is not putting some element of obscure blame on the SNP.

 

[Old Skier]

I've had it for two and a half years and just heartily sick to the teeth of it - but I'm not going to stop doing whatever I can to prevent happening something that I feel will be severely damaging to the future lives and prospects of my children as well as damaging to the UK and UK society as a whole.

So your comment on a previous thread stating you accept the vote even though you don't agree with it was a lie.

What action are you going to take to prevent it happening.

I notice you have seen into Joe Bloggs future, care to show were you got your facts from.