Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hacker Khan]

And anyway, I thought this was very good

 

[Blue in Munich]

Wondered how long it would be before those that didn't want this mess were being blamed for it - and those responsible for decided it wasn't their fault.The blame is 100% with those who wanted this. Besides - that many leading Leavers and many leave voters are now calling for a 'managed No Deal' - as if that is what all Leave voters voted for - simply trashes that shifting of blame. No Deal means just that - No Deal. And No Deal renders completely irrelevant everything that any Remain supporter might have said over the last two years.
No - the responsibility for any downside and disruption or chaos that results from leaving the EU sits 100% with one group and one group only. And that group is not that whch wanted none of this. Dear Leavers - you won - get over it - and take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

And on that I am back out of this thread.

Good; the quality of posting & debate on this thread has improved greatly since you stopped -stirring on it rather than posting anything of value. If you could stay out this time I'm sure many would be grateful.

 

[Hobbit]

We may be talking about different things here. I thought the original post about blame being thrown around was referring to the mess we are in with regards to the process, i.e. why are we in the state we are currently in. I would argue there was a way to exit in an orderly fashion that would have got some level of agreement. Where as you seem to be looking more at reasons why some are very disenchanted with the EU. I suspect quite a few people are very disenchanted with the EU but also appalled with how we are handling the leave process.

I think you're right. The mess we're in is down to the idiots that are currently in Parliament. The root cause goes back many years.

 

[Blue in Munich]

We may be talking about different things here. I thought the original post about blame being thrown around was referring to the mess we are in with regards to the process, i.e. why are we in the state we are currently in. I would argue there was a way to exit in an orderly fashion that would have got some level of agreement. Where as you seem to be looking more at reasons why some are very disenchanted with the EU. I suspect quite a few people are very disenchanted with the EU but also appalled with how we are handling the leave process.

Gets my vote. Although it might be more accurate to say that I'm completely disenchanted with the EU's politicians than with the EU.

I fully appreciate the benefits that immigrants who come to work and who integrate bring, the medical cover that we enjoy travelling in Europe, the ease of movement; there are undoubtedly benefits from being on good terms with the neighbours, there are indeed many benefits that I'd rather keep. However I'm completely disenchanted with the creeping federalism & protectionism of the EU, the political decisions from within the EU that seem skewed towards certain players and with the pathetic inability of politicians on both sides of the English Channel to sort out something that shouldn't be as difficult as they are making it. They consider themselves the political elite; it would be nice if they started acting like it...

 

[Hacker Khan]

Gets my vote. Although it might be more accurate to say that I'm completely disenchanted with the EU's politicians than with the EU.

I fully appreciate the benefits that immigrants who come to work and who integrate bring, the medical cover that we enjoy travelling in Europe, the ease of movement; there are undoubtedly benefits from being on good terms with the neighbours, there are indeed many benefits that I'd rather keep. However I'm completely disenchanted with the creeping federalism & protectionism of the EU, the political decisions from within the EU that seem skewed towards certain players and with the pathetic inability of politicians on both sides of the English Channel to sort out something that shouldn't be as difficult as they are making it. They consider themselves the political elite; it would be nice if they started acting like it...

Whilst I don't agree with it, to me it seems a fair argument and is refreshing to see a balanced view of things. I don't think most leavers think the EU is all bad or most remainers think it is all good, but are somewhere in inbetween. But that is not the people who end up on debates in the media.

I think that is another big issue in that they are seen as 'the elite' and people rally against these types. Where as to me it is becoming increasingly clear that they are not elite in the sense of having great ideas or leadership, but are mostly people either with an inherited sense of importance who have got their way to the top that way or people who have been promoted above their competence levels. And they are increasingly being found out.

 

[drdel]

Part of the reason its a mess is systemic of the nature of decision making in the EU. The structure does not reward initiative or decision-makers: rather it rewards those who prevaricate and kick the can down the road. Any 'leaders' who are proactive risk making errors and don't get promoted. The 'politically' astute tend to wait until events and time take over and the outcome is determined by events that way they can either claim a success or blame others = Teflon managers. It is largely the promotion of the non-involved or the well connected.

Barnier and Tusk are in a lose, lose situation if they take a decision and make any recommendations; but, if they sit and wait for the UK to make the running then the UK's propositions can be pulled apart because there is no alternative against which to make comparisons. If you look analytically at the historic way the EU has handled past strategic issues it has always drifted to the last minute and beyond.

EU is treating Brexit the same as all their major pan-member issues in the past. Any British MP or political party would have met the same blocking negotiating tactics because structurally the organisation is incapable of behaving differently.

The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.

It interesting to note that Germany is beginning to realise that their biggest market is in danger of wandering off over the horizon and this would fundamentally impact their economy which is finely balanced and quite narrowly focussed. Is this enough for pragmatism and common-sense to surface - I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Hobbit]

The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.
.

And why shouldn't they be opposed to Brexit? All of the EU Commission is opposed to Brexit, now there's a shock.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Part of the reason its a mess is systemic of the nature of decision making in the EU. The structure does not reward initiative or decision-makers: rather it rewards those who prevaricate and kick the can down the road. Any 'leaders' who are proactive risk making errors and don't get promoted. The 'politically' astute tend to wait until events and time take over and the outcome is determined by events that way they can either claim a success or blame others = Teflon managers. It is largely the promotion of the non-involved or the well connected.

Barnier and Tusk are in a lose, lose situation if they take a decision and make any recommendations; but, if they sit and wait for the UK to make the running then the UK's propositions can be pulled apart because there is no alternative against which to make comparisons. If you look analytically at the historic way the EU has handled past strategic issues it has always drifted to the last minute and beyond.

EU is treating Brexit the same as all their major pan-member issues in the past. Any British MP or political party would have met the same blocking negotiating tactics because structurally the organisation is incapable of behaving differently.

The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.

It interesting to note that Germany is beginning to realise that their biggest market is in danger of wandering off over the horizon and this would fundamentally impact their economy which is finely balanced and quite narrowly focussed. Is this enough for pragmatism and common-sense to surface - I'm not holding my breath.

I've seen a very well argued and reasoned post by BIM about why they want to leave but to be honest, yours just comes across as a mixture of extreme naievity (The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit no *&*^ Sherlock) and a constant blaming of the EU for our current position.

You go on about the nature of their decision making but they appointed one person to do the negotiating on their behalf, they were all behind them and they had an agreed solid position. We have had 3 Brexit minsters that had very little support and no where near an agreed position. And with under 100 days to go we still haven't and no one has a proper clue what will happen. So who's the ones bad at negotiating? Yes the EU are a long way from perfect but if you see them totally as the baddies then you will be in for a hell of a shock when we leave.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Whilst I don't agree with it, to me it seems a fair argument and is refreshing to see a balanced view of things. I don't think most leavers think the EU is all bad or most remainers think it is all good, but are somewhere in inbetween. But that is not the people who end up on debates in the media.

I think that is another big issue in that they are seen as 'the elite' and people rally against these types. Where as to me it is becoming increasingly clear that they are not elite in the sense of having great ideas or leadership, but are mostly people either with an inherited sense of importance who have got their way to the top that way or people who have been promoted above their competence levels. And they are increasingly being found out.

There's a hell of a lot of truth in that statement for me. I know of more than a few people who had great difficulty in deciding which side of the fence to come down on. I'd be happy to remain as part of the gang if we could sort out the issues that a lot of people have but unfortunately the EU seem reluctant to give ground to gain an agreement and our politicians seem incapable of persuading them of the benefits that a middle ground that would resolve the issues could be reached.

Unfortunately I think our press has been as bad as our politicians in failing to properly research the feelings of the country, particularly in regard to the immigration issue, resulting in the tagging of Leavers as rabid knuckle dragging racists with single figure IQs, which has helped to polarise opinions and stifle debate. I'm not against immigration that improves our country; I wouldn't be here to debate it without the multi-racial team in the cardiac unit that saved my life, but I'm convinced Oxford Street doesn't need any more Eastern European beggars or shoplifters. I'd like to have some sort of better control over immigration but as the EU stance is free movement or else, that places me against them. If there was room for negotiation I'd be happy to reconsider, were I to be given the option.

 

[doublebogey7]

There's a hell of a lot of truth in that statement for me. I know of more than a few people who had great difficulty in deciding which side of the fence to come down on. I'd be happy to remain as part of the gang if we could sort out the issues that a lot of people have but unfortunately the EU seem reluctant to give ground to gain an agreement and our politicians seem incapable of persuading them of the benefits that a middle ground that would resolve the issues could be reached.

Unfortunately I think our press has been as bad as our politicians in failing to properly research the feelings of the country, particularly in regard to the immigration issue, resulting in the tagging of Leavers as rabid knuckle dragging racists with single figure IQs, which has helped to polarise opinions and stifle debate. I'm not against immigration that improves our country; I wouldn't be here to debate it without the multi-racial team in the cardiac unit that saved my life, but I'm convinced Oxford Street doesn't need any more Eastern European beggars or shoplifters. I'd like to have some sort of better control over immigration but as the EU stance is free movement or else, that places me against them. If there was room for negotiation I'd be happy to reconsider, were I to be given the option.[/QUOTE]
You are aware that the so called free movement regulations allow for member states to return EU migrants to their home countries if they have not been able to find work within 3 months of arrival.

 

[Blue in Munich]

You are aware that the so called free movement regulations allow for member states to return EU migrants to their home countries if they have not been able to find work within 3 months of arrival.

Yes I am. I'm also personally aware of the time and effort it takes to catch up with them 3 months down the line when they aren't to be found at a regular place of employment or at the address where they are supposed to be. I'd rather not let the fox into the henhouse than clear up the mess afterwards if you see what I mean.

 

[drdel]

I've seen a very well argued and reasoned post by BIM about why they want to leave but to be honest, yours just comes across as a mixture of extreme naievity (The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit no *&*^ Sherlock) and a constant blaming of the EU for our current position.

You go on about the nature of their decision making but they appointed one person to do the negotiating on their behalf, they were all behind them and they had an agreed solid position. We have had 3 Brexit minsters that had very little support and no where near an agreed position. And with under 100 days to go we still haven't and no one has a proper clue what will happen. So who's the ones bad at negotiating? Yes the EU are a long way from perfect but if you see them totally as the baddies then you will be in for a hell of a shock when we leave.

I guess you have not been at the front end of major European operated, multi-member projects.

And, I never said anything about the competence of individuals my critique was concerned with the organisational dynamics. Barnier holds a position but without authority

I stand by my summary a few posts above.

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes I am. I'm also personally aware of the time and effort it takes to catch up with them 3 months down the line when they aren't to be found at a regular place of employment or at the address where they are supposed to be. I'd rather not let the fox into the henhouse than clear up the mess afterwards if you see what I mean.

Interesting, so how do you think the UK government is going to stop the fox from getting into the hen house post Brexit, and how much will it cost.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Interesting, so how do you think the UK government is going to stop the fox from getting into the hen house post Brexit, and how much will it cost.

I have no idea how they are going to go about it; having seen the absolute pig's ear that they appear to have made of the negotiations I have absolutely no faith in them actually implementing any increased restrictions that they might achieve.

 

[SocketRocket]

If we were not serious about being prepared to leave with a no deal from the start of these negotiations then we threw away our chances of negotiating a reasonable deal. Parliament have been making it clear that they would not accept a no deal so why would the EU wish to give us a good one, they just needed to put together a punishment deal in the knowledge that if it was rejected we would have no other option but remain. Remainers including parliamentarians have engineered the current state of affairs and talk of giving the people a say is just playing dirty tricks, they are just not prepared to accept losing the referendum and have acted underhandedly. We should have insisted that we would not sign up to anything until everything was agreed and been clear the border in Ireland was a matter between the UK and Ireland and we would both guarantee an open border.

 

[jp5]

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!

 

[IanM]

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!

If you choose to ignore what they are saying, I cant help that.........what we've had is people strongly trying to Remain, pretending to negotiate an exit!

 

[SocketRocket]

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!

I knew what I wanted and I expect the vast majority knew as well and it wasn't written on any bus. We wanted to leave the EU and its institutions. Your comment is incorrect, it was the government that didnt have a plan because the remainers in parliament thought it impossible the plebs would dare to vote the way they did. Cameron promised us that tne result would be carried out ,no ifs no buts so one would expect him to have a plan.

 

[Sweep]

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!

what makes you think people didn’t know what they wanted instead?
I think the point was that if remainers had accepted the result of the referendum Brexit would have been smoother. That’s not an illogical point. I have to say I am surprised at the strength of feeling on both sides of the debate and it’s fair to say, we rarely see a “losing” side so vocal in its opposition to the result of a ballot. If this happened in General Elections no-one would ever govern. I think in this case this is partly due to the remain side being encouraged that they can minimise the effects of the result or even overturn it all together by our elected representatives who mainly agree with them.

 

[jp5]

If you choose to ignore what they are saying, I cant help that.........what we've had is people strongly trying to Remain, pretending to negotiate an exit!

I've been listening to what they've been saying. Farage was a very keen proponent of the Norway model, something I expect the majority of the country could get behind now, right up until the referendum victory. Then the goalposts start to change!

I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.