Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[jp5]

I have to say I am surprised at the strength of feeling on both sides of the debate and it’s fair to say, we rarely see a “losing” side so vocal in its opposition to the result of a ballot. If this happened in General Elections no-one would ever govern.

It would be like running a General Election with the question "The Conservatives or Not The Conservatives". We're in the process of finding out what "Not The Conservatives" actually means - of course there is going to be strong feelings on that as it hasn't yet been defined.

 

[Sweep]

I've been listening to what they've been saying. Farage was a very keen proponent of the Norway model, something I expect the majority of the country could get behind now, right up until the referendum victory. Then the goalposts start to change!

I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.

Farage wasn’t really a keen proponent of the Norway model. He highlighted it to show that countries could prosper outside the EU and still have a good relationship with the EU. He didn’t extol it as a way forward for the UK.
As a regular importer from Norway, I am still waiting for clarification on what, in practice, the Norway model actually is. In my experience it’s like importing from any other nation on WTO rules. It’s a red herring.
I take your point on Davis and Raab. They wanted to leave and paid the price with their jobs. May is just trying to fudge it.

 

[IanM]

I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.

Farage is a funny one.... his influence is negligible. Never been an MP, not in the Govt and never had a role in the negotiations... although he and his opponents like to say otherwise

I think those red lines are known to be unacceptable to many... I think that is in order to make Brexit look "too hard to do" and force Ref2 and a Remain Outcome. I can however, understand your position on how it could be seen to make "No Deal" the outcome more likely....

Time will tell who is right....

 

[Sweep]

It would be like running a General Election with the question "The Conservatives or Not The Conservatives". We're in the process of finding out what "Not The Conservatives" actually means - of course there is going to be strong feelings on that as it hasn't yet been defined.

No, it’s like running the GE on Labour or Conservative but when the opposition wins the government side won’t accept it and won’t stand down.

 

[Sweep]

Farage is a funny one.... his influence is negligible. Never been an MP, not in the Govt and never had a role in the negotiations... although he and his opponents like to say otherwise

I think those red lines are known to be unacceptable to many... I think that is in order to make Brexit look "too hard to do" and force Ref2 and a Remain Outcome. I can however, understand your position on how it could be seen to make "No Deal" the outcome more likely....

Time will tell who is right....

I don’t think you can say Farage’s influence was negligible. He alone practically forced Cameron to hold the referendum.

 

[IanM]

I don’t think you can say Farage’s influence was negligible. He alone practically forced Cameron to hold the referendum.

I can and I did, it's in the line above! But seriously, he is an MEP only. Failed to get elected to Westminster several times, a distant if eloquent noise maker.

How do you think he forced Cameron to hold a Referendum? I think Cameron was trying to kill off the EU Division in the Tories that has dogged them for 30 years... and he was utterly shocked at the outcome...

 

[jp5]

Farage was attracting millions of votes pretty much single handedly. Cameron had to promise the referendum to stop the bleed to UKIP from the Tories. Like him or not Farage had a huge pull - just look at where UKIP are without him.

 

[Slime]

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!

That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?

 

[bluewolf]

That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?

Watching the ERG flounder about like a headless chicken put that thought in my mind....

 

[Sweep]

Watching the ERG flounder about like a headless chicken put that thought in my mind....

Interesting view. As far as I can see the ERG have put forward concrete proposals. Which is more than Her Majesty’s Opposition have done.
Whether you agree with such proposals is another matter.

 

[bluewolf]

Interesting view. As far as I can see the ERG have put forward concrete proposals. Which is more than Her Majesty’s Opposition have done.
Whether you agree with such proposals is another matter.

Apologies. I mistakenly thought I was posting in another thread. Please ignore my post as I did say that I wasn't posting in here anymore...... 👍

 

[harpo_72]

That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?

Probably all the non agreement now ... I suppose you could say the remain camp were and are united

 

[Mudball]

First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. can’t the Met understand that this is the people’s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job.. we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156

 

[Doon frae Troon]

First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. can’t the Met understand that this is the people’s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job.. we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156

Eh , surely that is exactly what the Met and BoE are doing, keeping us informed and safe by warning us about the dangers of our post brexit society.

 

[Hobbit]

First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. can’t the Met understand that this is the people’s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job.. we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156

I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it.

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose £4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and interdependencies. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!

 

[drdel]

I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it.

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose £4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and interdependencies. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!

I totally agree. The senior staff in most of these organisations have no experience of international finance or affairs but just want to be in the media and arrogantly play politics when they should be neutral. Unfortunately many of these same people have risen to the top, not because of merit but because of their 'political' game playing. I guess it would be unfair to use Sussex Police as an example of competence in communications !! e.g. "When is a drone not a drone"? = When the Chief speaks to the press.

We now have some dim whitted 'pop' stars bleating on.

I despair that logic and intelligence has gone down the tubes

 

[drdel]

Harmony in the EU is being challenged as rules are being bent for France but not for Italy. Eastern members setting themselves against western members over immigration.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it.

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose £4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and interdependencies. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!

All the lady from the met said was '

The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term".
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."

To me that is not project fear scaremongering, it is just a quite dry explanation of what they will differences there will be with no deal in place. If people want to see it as project fear and not to be read then OK, it's a free world. Me, I just see it as a sensible explanation of what may happen if there is not deal when it comes to policing. She's not said there will be hoards of Romanian criminals raging through the cities of the UK unable to be arrested. I mean what do people want her to say when asked the question as I'm sure she, along with just about every other person in the UK, would be expecting a bit of clarity on what will happen by now.

 

[Mudball]

So my kids asked for an Xbox and Switch while the Mrs wants a holiday to the Caribbean... As the head of the family (albeit unelected), I now need to find a way to pay for these even though my current desk job does not afford it. I should remember that I 'asked' them what they wanted for Christmas is my mistake. Now should i just grind away and deliver the 'family wish' or should i drum some perspective?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

If we win the referendum, our pensions will be invalid, there will be armed troops on the borders, we will not be allowed to use the pound, we will be forced to drive on the right, our academic qualifications will not be recognised, we will not be allowed to hold the Open golf championship or enter the European song contest, watch Eastenders, BBC News etc etc...……..UK snowflakes ......….Now that is what I call Scaremongering.
Mind you I always saw the last three as a positive.