Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[HughJars]

Is that really the level the news has got to now and you are using it as a judgement against her because a car lock didn’t work

This is the exact sort of thing people are sick off now - people just looking for any small reason to snipe away and it’s fuelled even more by the gutter media

Sky News were pathetic to tweet about it and you were even more so to jump on it and then point fingers at her for it

Remember that time Neil Kinnock lost an election for falling into the breakers? Remember when Milliband couldn;t eat a bacon sandwich properly? Aye, that

 

[Hacker Khan]

It appears that Theresa May told the EU she was pulling the vote before she told her cabinet. Not a good look if true.

Probably because she knew the minute she told her cabinet it would be leaked within seconds to the media.

 

[Foxholer]

Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy.

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'

This is all B/S!

In the UK version of Democracy, nothing the Government is doing is actually wrong!

It may be immoral or any number of other descriptions! But it's certainly not un-Democratic!

And remember that (the UK version of) Democracy has actually already been pretty well served through the (UK) Court syetem in this matter!

But none of the above helps the impasse that May has arrived at! To me, there are 4 options; Accept this deal; Renegotiate; Leave with 'No Deal'; Have another referendum in order to reverse the result of the initial one. The first 3 all have benefits and disadvantages. The last option strikes me as entirely undemocratic, though it could actually be fudged by the question!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Why is Europe so against us leaving?

2 Reasons I would say.

First of all, out of the 28 members only about 4 put in more than they take out. We are one of those. If we leave then either the other 3 put more in or the 'takers' have less to take. That doesn't appeal to any of the remaining 27.

Secondly, the worry is that if the UK leaves and does well it will encourage other countries who are not enamoured with the EU to leave. There are a number of disgruntled countries within the EU but none have made the big step that the UK did. People have talked up the calamity of leaving the EU, sailing off the end of a flat earth......, but what if it is not a calamity? Others may go, the domino effect, and the whole organisation collapses bit by bit.

 

[Sweep]

Good excuse to get away from May's constant repetitive whining.

If you think about it, he picked up the Mace - thereby preventing Parliament from voting - in protest about Parliament not voting. What a plonker.

 

[Sweep]

But that's what they are doing, by refusing to (largely) dilute FoM etc, they are protecting the remaining citizens of the EU. There's no ulterior motive there, the leavers were well warned that the EU would look after the EU first and foremost because why on earth wouldn;t they. You can;t then blame them for doing exactly that.

So would it benefit ordinary citizens of the EU for the UK to leave without a deal?

 

[Sweep]

Only Parliament could have a meaningless debate on the meaningful vote when there isn’t going to be a vote. And that is what they are doing right now.

 

[Hacker Khan]

So would it benefit ordinary citizens of the EU for the UK to leave without a deal?

Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK.

How will people here manage without those EU tariffs pushing up prices on world goods outside the EU. Let them eat fish.

 

[Sweep]

Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK.

Precisely, so the EU negotiating position of protecting the EU project first and getting a good deal second is not good for the very people they govern.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

If you think about it, he picked up the Mace - thereby preventing Parliament from voting - in protest about Parliament not voting. What a plonker.

Catch Mhari McKay's speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures ….. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.

 

[MegaSteve]

In theory we can dump the fools in Westminster but those in Brussels are untouchable...

 

[ColchesterFC]

Catch Mhari McKay's speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures ….. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you meant Mhari Black as when I googled Mhari MaKay it came up with a Scottish professional golfer.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm going to hazard a guess that you meant Mhari Black as when I googled Mhari MaKay it came up with a Scottish professional golfer.

Did she have anything to say about Brexit? Maybe she is the one with the solution? Forget politicians, give Mhari Makay a go

 

[Hacker Khan]

Precisely, so the EU negotiating position of protecting the EU project first and getting a good deal second is not good for the very people they govern.

Sorry but I'm struggling to follow the logic here. Are you saying that as a no deal is not the best outcome for the EU citizens they should give us a lot of concessions to avoid it? Even though if they do they know that will potentially be bad for the EU as an organisation/project/union or whatever we are calling it, as it will set a precedent for other countries that may want to leave?

 

[ColchesterFC]

Did she have anything to say about Brexit? Maybe she is the one with the solution? Forget politicians, give Mhari Makay a go

I'm not sure that's going to work. She played on the European Tour so is bound to be a Remainer. And we've seen what happens if you put a Remainer in charge of Brexit.

 

[SocketRocket]

Catch Mhari McKay's speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures ….. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.

Inspirational ! 😐 Almost like grown men in skirts throwing telegraph poles around. 👍

 

[drdel]

Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.

 

[Slime]

Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.

That appears to be a very educated and well constructed and unbiased post.
I'll give May 10 out of 10 for sticking at it with so many knives being constantly plunged into her back.

 

[SocketRocket]

Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.

I can only compare the current negotations to someone sitting down with a car salesman and saying "Before I start haggling I want you to understand that I will be buying this car off you at the full price"