Slime
Tour Winner
What two points do you mean.
Clearly she changed her mind about going ahead with the vote today.
Did you miss that.
Yeah, because changing ones mind is exactly the same as a referendum.
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
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Yeah, because changing ones mind is exactly the same as a referendum.
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
The leave voters from any party who went with a second referendum would be incensed. This I believe would be a greater issue for the Tories rather than Labour as Europe has split the Tories for decades with neither side willing to back down. Most UKIP members were disaffected Tories.
I agree most wouldn’t go to Labour but they will never trust the Tories again, even if the second referendum result was leave. They would rather not vote. After all, what is the point in voting when even if you vote with the majority you don’t get what you voted for?
The major problem is that most people, in particular those who voted leave, ie the majority, would lose all faith in democracy and politics in general. As I said earlier, positions will become polarised, the extremes will enjoy a resurgence. That’s what happens when people become frustrated and think they are not being listened to. We are seeing this already.
This could split the Tory party and indeed Labour which only a few months ago was being held together with spit and paper lips. We are getting into unchartered territory. New parties could form and take the centre ground. Peter Hargreaves who had already invested 3.2 million into leave says he will fund a new party for committed Brexit politicians from the mainstream parties. Apparently he has more money than Donald Trump.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
From a personal point of view!
At the beginning:
Remain - Stay with EU
Leave - Leave(full stop)
I don’t think any deal will please remain supporters, but, even worse for me you have Leave Completely and Leave with a deal.
So whatever happens you’re going to have the Leave supporters split and some will feel betrayed even more than those (in their minds) who voted Remain.
At the beginning:
Remain - Stay with EU
Leave - Leave(full stop)
I don’t think any deal will please remain supporters, but, even worse for me you have Leave Completely and Leave with a deal.
So whatever happens you’re going to have the Leave supporters split and some will feel betrayed even more than those (in their minds) who voted Remain.
chrisd
Major Champion
What two points do you mean.
Clearly she changed her mind about going ahead with the vote today.
Did you miss that.
So, deciding not to go ahead with a vote tomorrow which she WILL have to hold soon, is the same as undermining the democratic principal and all8wing a vote to reverse a referendum?
I agree it was very much a binary choice at the time of the vote. Two things from that. I think Remain have done a fantastic job of splitting the Leave vote into a number of facets; 'total' Leave, Leave with bits of Remain, a protest Leave but wanted to stay. I think both the Remain campaigners and the govt have done a great job of totally flummoxing the Leave side. If there was another vote now I would doubt they'd make 40% if the question was phrased right.
Personally, irrespective of any personal desire to Remain, I feel we've seen the worst bit of governing for the people ever, and by some wide margin. I think Blue in Munich nailed it yesterday. We're better off being ruled by Brussels because the current crowd, including the official opposition, are inept and incompetent. I think the whole crowd, bar a very very few, are all self-serving party following sheep who are an absolute disgrace to their profession. "Mother of Democracy," oh please, you've got to be joking. They might have given democracy to the world but they forgot to keep some back for themselves.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Agreed mate, the hard line Leavers maybe more frustrated, but I don’t think anyone wins.
The revisiting of the backstop problem put forward today as the reason for delaying the vote is simply an excuse imo, she claimed it was the best deal for Britain last week, so what can change?
Watching BBC Parliament today was embarrassing for the Country.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I sit here this morning totally… jeez I don’t even know what it is!
The biggest political game of ‘call my bluff’ in my lifetime is playing out before the world and no one’s been appointed ‘quizmaster’ that can stop the ridiculous game-play, give a right good telling off to the players and send everyone to their rooms without supper!
Every MP in the HoC should wake up today ashamed and embarrassed with their conduct and performance (on both sides) throughout this mess & I fear its already too late for any of the players to be trusted to govern ever again (either sitting or in opposition)
They have failed the country and in all likelihood no one will ever be held accountable because they can simply blame the 'people' for giving them the game to play with in the first place
The biggest political game of ‘call my bluff’ in my lifetime is playing out before the world and no one’s been appointed ‘quizmaster’ that can stop the ridiculous game-play, give a right good telling off to the players and send everyone to their rooms without supper!
Every MP in the HoC should wake up today ashamed and embarrassed with their conduct and performance (on both sides) throughout this mess & I fear its already too late for any of the players to be trusted to govern ever again (either sitting or in opposition)
They have failed the country and in all likelihood no one will ever be held accountable because they can simply blame the 'people' for giving them the game to play with in the first place
Mudball
Assistant Pro
Omnishambles.. but i must admit, I expected the bill would go thru parliament. So a bit surprised that it was culled. The fact that it came down to May going, sign my deal or have Corbyn as PM just shows the moral bankruptcy that we have plummeted to. I would fire the whole lot.
Please dont credit the Remainers for 'winning'. One of the worst outcomes for this country 2 years ago was that it split the country between the camps. Now this is reflecting in this debate - apparently Leavers 'lost' while Remain 'have done a fantastic job' and 'won'. I think collectively we have lost. Leave lost because they could not drag UK out of the EU, Remain lost because we still dont have a deal. Unfortnatley, this is NOT a binary choice as the reality is that we need the EU as much as they need us. The UK needs NI to be part of the UK and it has a land border which does not want a hard border etc etc.
Please dont credit the Remainers for 'winning'. One of the worst outcomes for this country 2 years ago was that it split the country between the camps. Now this is reflecting in this debate - apparently Leavers 'lost' while Remain 'have done a fantastic job' and 'won'. I think collectively we have lost. Leave lost because they could not drag UK out of the EU, Remain lost because we still dont have a deal. Unfortnatley, this is NOT a binary choice as the reality is that we need the EU as much as they need us. The UK needs NI to be part of the UK and it has a land border which does not want a hard border etc etc.
chrisd
Major Champion
I watched most of yesterday afternoons Parliament goings on and frankly am appalled at the people who we voted in across the UK to represent us!
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
I suppose you know what to do when the next election is called in a couple of days/weeks/months/years, who knows anymore. I'm hoping that most of the current lot go away now as I can't help thinking there are some decent politicians in both of the main parties who will be a bit more collaborative and forward looking.
And whilst I know the tradition is a massive part of the appeal of this to some, I'm beginning to look at some of the rules and behaviours in parliament and thinking, really, in 2018 this is still a thing? PMQs for example is just people grandstanding, people toadying up to their leader, people being deliberately awkward, people trying to score points with petty arguments and questions and most of them generally behaving like children. I mean we all know that's how golf forums operate, but in parliament???
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
Sadly I fear the whole EU Brexit arguement has been nothing more than a personal crusade by certain MP's (on both sides to a degree) to better and further their standing amongst their core party supporters. It's never been about whats really best for the country and Union as a whole.
Valuable time has been wasted over this instead of focusing on things that really need time. We are a laughing stock for the whole World and have even managed to make Trump look organised and rational.
The whole HoC should all be ashamed for the way it's all gone and the way they've carried on, they are an embarressment to us all.
Valuable time has been wasted over this instead of focusing on things that really need time. We are a laughing stock for the whole World and have even managed to make Trump look organised and rational.
The whole HoC should all be ashamed for the way it's all gone and the way they've carried on, they are an embarressment to us all.
jp5
Q-School Graduate
That's not Remain that's done that - just the nature of the Brexit lot. You'd struggle to find consensus among any of the leading Leave politicians as to what they want, which is why two and half years later we're no closer to a resolution.
Should have decided on an alternative first and then had a vote on that vs. remain - at least there would have been a mandate for a particular brexit in that case.
oxymoron
Club Champion
Watching channel 4 news last night i got a little unnerved when they were interviewing an Irish lady (i think she was some sort of deputy minister ) and someone from the green party and what struck me was they talked of the "political classes " and the UK being a "rogue state !"
What the hell does that mean ? By the use of the term political classes i thought , rightly or wrongly they seemed to say the man on the street was not able to determine their path in life and the politicians know whats best for us .
And as for rogue state , well i am flummoxed, are we a nation or part of a European superstate ? Listening to the 2 of them it was almost as if we were a naughty child who needs to be brought in to line .
This i think is why we need to leave this insidious organisation before it indeed does morph in to one big United States of Europe without the citizens having any say in how we are governed .
If it had stopped as just being a trading block (the EEC) then all well and good but it has gone too far for me
What the hell does that mean ? By the use of the term political classes i thought , rightly or wrongly they seemed to say the man on the street was not able to determine their path in life and the politicians know whats best for us .
And as for rogue state , well i am flummoxed, are we a nation or part of a European superstate ? Listening to the 2 of them it was almost as if we were a naughty child who needs to be brought in to line .
This i think is why we need to leave this insidious organisation before it indeed does morph in to one big United States of Europe without the citizens having any say in how we are governed .
If it had stopped as just being a trading block (the EEC) then all well and good but it has gone too far for me
HughJars
Q-School Graduate
I had a day off, and watched or listened on radio to a helluva lot. Joanna Cherry in particular was an absolute star, as was Kirsty Blackman, and it has to be admitted, John Bercow. What was rather stark, were the "leave" Tories who had nothing to say but noise, I thought my MP was one of the lowest, "yes this is rubbish, but if it was Labour in charge it'd be worse" - superb Mr Andrew Bowie, vying for the Dorries/Redwood/Thomson/Hair as the biggest gluepot at Westminster
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
Whilst I don’t disagree with the comments on here this morning regarding our disgust towards parliament and the way they have handled this, in the cold light of day we are actually where we were right at the start. There is an impasse. We have stalemate. Mainly because both sides have been negotiating disingenuously. The EU from the point of protecting and maintaining their project, the UK from the point of not really wanting to go and trying to make the best fudge out of it. This is not what either side should have been doing and we are where we are as a result.
The situation, albeit of the UK governments own making by chasing a deal no-one was ever going to accept, is not helped by big-wigs in the EU reverting to their intransigence position by saying things like “so now you want to renegotiate your own proposal†and “there is no room for renegotiation†before Mrs May has even arrived for a chat. This is not how you arrive at a deal that works for both parties. It’s also arrogant.
So, as we are back to where we started I believe Mrs May’s only option is to do what she and the UK negotiators should have done in the first place. Inform the EU to find a deal or we will have to leave in 3 months time with no deal. As things stand, that is actually the truth of the matter. As regrettable as this may be Mrs May would only be carrying out the result of the referendum. This is her fall back position. In truth this was always the position from the start. We were just too soft and diplomatic to put it that way, but time has now run out. She would only be doing what the EU have done all along and batted it back to the other side. Because the EU big wig was right in one sense. It was our proposal. We are the only ones who seem to have made any proposals.
The EU would then have a choice. If they choose to let us go with no deal then we would know what the position was all along. More likely, with such a big trade deficit and 39billion on the table they would renegotiate and quick.
This should all have happened two years ago of course, but we are where we are and it seems right now this is the only option left for the PM.
The situation, albeit of the UK governments own making by chasing a deal no-one was ever going to accept, is not helped by big-wigs in the EU reverting to their intransigence position by saying things like “so now you want to renegotiate your own proposal†and “there is no room for renegotiation†before Mrs May has even arrived for a chat. This is not how you arrive at a deal that works for both parties. It’s also arrogant.
So, as we are back to where we started I believe Mrs May’s only option is to do what she and the UK negotiators should have done in the first place. Inform the EU to find a deal or we will have to leave in 3 months time with no deal. As things stand, that is actually the truth of the matter. As regrettable as this may be Mrs May would only be carrying out the result of the referendum. This is her fall back position. In truth this was always the position from the start. We were just too soft and diplomatic to put it that way, but time has now run out. She would only be doing what the EU have done all along and batted it back to the other side. Because the EU big wig was right in one sense. It was our proposal. We are the only ones who seem to have made any proposals.
The EU would then have a choice. If they choose to let us go with no deal then we would know what the position was all along. More likely, with such a big trade deficit and 39billion on the table they would renegotiate and quick.
This should all have happened two years ago of course, but we are where we are and it seems right now this is the only option left for the PM.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Can I ask a genuine question to you and all those that voted leave?
Did you want a “no deal†scenario when you voted leave?
Or
Did you want some sort of “deal†when you voted leave?
oxymoron
Club Champion
I think the negotiations should have been a cross party thing , then party politics could (should ) have been kept out and we could have concentrated on what's best for the country and not for a particular party .
From here i think there is too much self serving going on in this and the electorate would do good to remember this come the next election .Surely its time to put country before party .
From here i think there is too much self serving going on in this and the electorate would do good to remember this come the next election .Surely its time to put country before party .
IanM
Journeyman Pro
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No such thing as "no deal." Do you mean WTO rules?
Answering your question, I expected the Governement to "bother" negotiating something beyond WTO, esp as all the EU folk who export to us, actually need it more! (German cars, French wine, fishing rights etc) But of course it became clear quite quickly that the Remain Cabinet have followed a strategy of delay and soft-ball in order to get us to where we are. i.e Sufficient stalemate and fear to ensure a Remain win in 2nd Referendum.
I've been clear on this since the delay in invoking Article 50. I may be proved wrong and we leave without a deal, but I would be shocked. The EU have no need to "negotiate" as
a) Mrs May isnt actually trying to do a deal that will keep Leavers or Remainers happy, and
b) The EU needs to sock it to the UK to stop others going!! (Don't underestimate the level of EU scepticism in other countries - I recently spent 2 years working with French Unions and Workers Councils...an eye opener! )
Either way... don't excuse "leaving the EU" with the shambles the Tories are making of it!
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Nail on the head.
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
Good question.
As a reluctant leaver I wanted the best deal we could arrive at for both sides in terms of trade but accepted that we had to be prepared to leave with no deal. I never believed we could have our cake and eat it and never believed that no deal would be catastrophic.
If the EU was still a trading deal I wouldn’t have voted to leave, but sadly it’s much more than that. It needs reform but incapable of it. I didn’t believe the trade deal was worth all what I see as the bad stuff that comes with EU membership and so voted to leave.
I believed it was in both sides best interests to do a deal on trade and I was hopeful this would happen, but I wanted to leave even if it didn’t. I am disappointed that all we have talked about so far is anything but trade.
Like most I think, my view hasn’t changed.
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