Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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I don't really understand why they didn't put it to the vote.

Yeah I know that it would have been voted no, but that would have then forced the hand by either going back to the public with a vote or no deal exit (or the dreamland some hope in going back to EU for a trade free deal )

It would be so interesting to read about if it wasn't the country I live in .
 
Sweep said:
I guess that depends on whether you believe having others run our country makes us better off. Whether having to be subject to the laws and courts of others makes us better off. If not knowing what the population of our country will be next week and as a result not being able to effectively plan services for all those people, UK nationals or others, makes us better off. Or having unelected and unremovable officials running our union makes us better off. Or having ever more federalism makes us better off.

I do believe that most people who voted remain did so because they felt we would be financially better off staying in. I also believe those who voted to leave did so because they want this country to make its own laws etc. I did the latter and I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out. The world is much bigger than 27 local countries many of which are in turmoil and not doing too well financially, despite being propped up by the EU.

I guess that’s the crux of the whole debate.
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I'm still waiting for an example of one law the EU have forced upon the UK that will make us better off, or they realistically think the UK Government would actually implement.

Also, regarding your point on immigration, that could quite easily be resolved if the UK Government was to actually follow the EU Freedom of Movement directive - https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/

You might also want to ready a little deeper into your rather simplistic assertion on "un-elected and unremovable (sic) officials" - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out
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Do you have an estimate on how long you are happy for "in the long run" to take?
 
woody69 said:
Still banging this drum eh? Hilarious.
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...is rather clear about Federalistic intent though isnt it? Also demonstrates some worrying concerns re his stability. But of course, best not mention it. Indeed, you didnt feel able to comment on it.

I've no problem with folk saying they are Federalist.... there are some decent arguements for it.... so just say so, but I do laugh at those who deny the strategy.
 
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This is going to damage this Country for years, regardless of how you voted.
Listening and watching the PM in the HoC, nobody will happy, you would of needed 3 boxes on the ballot paper to choose from.
Remain/Leave/Something neither wanted.
 
Kellfire said:
Nonsense. You can keep shouting that another vote would be undemocratic as much as you want - it will remain untrue and deep down you know that.
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Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy.

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'
 
bluewolf said:
Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side 👍
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I know we've had our differences but, as many have already said, you'll genuinely be missed from this thread.
As you said .......................... see you on the other side. (y)
 
woody69 said:
I'm still waiting for an example of one law the EU have forced upon the UK that will make us better off, or they realistically think the UK Government would actually implement.

Also, regarding your point on immigration, that could quite easily be resolved if the UK Government was to actually follow the EU Freedom of Movement directive - https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/

You might also want to ready a little deeper into your rather simplistic assertion on "un-elected and unremovable (sic) officials" - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/


Do you have an estimate on how long you are happy for "in the long run" to take?
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I didn’t say the EU imposed rules upon us that made us better off. 🤔

You can google what you like. The truth is that FOM means that anyone with EU citizenship can come to the UK and vice versa. That gives us a lack of control over the numbers that come here and plan for the services people need. The Blair government lied to the UK people (again) about the number of people that would come here following the expansion of the EU to include Poland. The fact that he didn’t apply the 7 year rule as highlighted in your link in reality meant that he was one of the only EU leaders to adhere to spirit of the EU at a time when he was promising a referendum on the Euro. He was applauded then by the Europhiles. Now they are slating him for it.

I don’t need to rethink anything on my assertions on the EU being undemocratic. Tusk, Juncker et al have not appeared on a ballot paper put before the people and are not removable (not sic) by the people. At best democracy in the EU is massively diluted.

I am afraid I don’t have an estimate on how long I would be happy for the long run to take. However, I would certainly be happier for us to be out of the EU during this long run. To listen to some remainers you would think the EU was the land of milk and honey. And yet we have Italy with the most right wing government since Mussolini, Austria (birth place of Hitler) with the most right wing government since, well Hitler, all kinds of other member states not fairing too well financially despite big subsidies from the EU, youth unemployment at ridiculous rates and Paris and Brussels experiencing riots week after week.

Considering all this, maybe the long run won’t be that long after all.
 
Hobbit said:
Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy.

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'
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If the Tory party opted for a second referendum it would never recover.
 
Sweep said:
If the Tory party opted for a second referendum it would never recover.
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Why?

Would the Leave Tory voters vote Labour? The odd one but not many more. There may well be a resurgence of UKIP, or Farage's new party, when he gets it up and running. And there may be some Leave Tory voters who abstain. But what you've got to remember is 40% of those that voted Leave were from Labour and the LibDems. After one Parliament of a Labour government with Corbyn and McDonnell policies, and the associated tax rises to fund them, the Conservatives would be back in.
 
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