Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Sweep said:
You still don’t get how a referendum works! A Democrat only when it suits. But keep clutching at straws. Desperation is a terrible thing.
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Democracy is not sticking to one decision forever. Especially when the electorate is now more informed.
 
Sweep said:
I agree. Like the vote to join the EEC
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Good. So now that we know that we will be worse off in even the best case brexit deal, clearly you’d support another vote to allow the now more informed public a chance to decide if we want to be worse off?
 
maxfli65 said:
Clearly you're wound up. You're posting over and over on this, we get your view, why not take a break for a day?
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It’s called taking part in a debate. Maybe you want me to take a break because my view doesn’t agree with yours? Maybe you can’t answer my points in a convincing way?
I posted sensibly putting my side of the debate and taking the trouble to answer questions others asked, particularly in regard to my field of work, comprehensively and objectively. Sometimes even highlighting the good points about the EU and the compromises it faces.
You on the other hand just resort to insulting posts and effectively telling people to shut up. That generally means you lost the debate.
It’s a forum. Look it up in the dictionary. If you don’t like what I have to say I believe there is an ignore option.
 
Kellfire said:
Good. So now that we know that we will be worse off in even the best case brexit deal, clearly you’d support another vote to allow the now more informed public a chance to decide if we want to be worse off?
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I don’t believe we will be worse off. I also believe that our elected representatives have a duty to enact the result of the referendum that was held 2.5 years ago now. I don’t believe they should embrace democracy when it gets them elected but reject it when it delivers a result they don’t like.
I have no issue whatsoever with people and our elected representatives campaigning for another referendum, when they have done their duty and carried out the instructions of the electorate.
I think it’s vital democracy is respected. As I said in an earlier post, our elected representatives are playing with fire. I believe the consequences for the governance of our country will be huge if the referendum result was not enacted. If we voted to remain I would say the same thing if there was a threat of the government doing the opposite.
Democracy is the only thing the average man in the street has. Without democracy he is powerless.
 
Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side 👍
 
Sweep said:
I don’t believe we will be worse off. I also believe that our elected representatives have a duty to enact the result of the referendum that was held 2.5 years ago now. I don’t believe they should embrace democracy when it gets them elected but reject it when it delivers a result they don’t like.
I have no issue whatsoever with people and our elected representatives campaigning for another referendum, when they have done their duty and carried out the instructions of the electorate.
I think it’s vital democracy is respected. As I said in an earlier post, our elected representatives are playing with fire. I believe the consequences for the governance of our country will be huge if the referendum result was not enacted. If we voted to remain I would say the same thing if there was a threat of the government doing the opposite.
Democracy is the only thing the average man in the street has. Without democracy he is powerless.
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Your first sentence sums up your approach. We will be worse off.
 
Laura Kuenssberg
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Two cabinet sources tell me vote being pulled - not, repeat not, yet officially confirmed
 
Remainers have predictably been salivating all over the ECJ’s ruling this morning that the UK can “unilaterally” revoke Article 50. The notoriously slow-moving EU Court discovered a remarkable turn of speed to deliver their judgement just in time for it to land one day before the crucial parliamentary vote in the UK. Definitely not a political court…

There’s just one problem – it’s not what the judgement actually says:

“…the revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw must, first, be submitted in writing to the European Council and, secondly, be unequivocal and unconditional…”

So it is not as simple as the UK simply telling the European Council it wants to withdraw Article 50 – the EU specifically reserves the power to rule on whether the UK’s notification is truly “unequivocal and unconditional”. Guido isn’t aware of any definitions of “unilateral” which include having to explicitly gain the approval of someone else. As ever, the ECJ marks its own homework to ensure that it always has the ultimate say over anything a member state can do…

The bottom line is that Article 50 is not going to be withdrawn unless there is a government in place that is prepared to table an Act of Parliament to unequivocally revoke it, and a Parliament that is prepared to vote this through. Even in today’s heavily Remainer-loaded Parliament, this is simply not going to happen…
 
Sweep said:
It’s called taking part in a debate. Maybe you want me to take a break because my view doesn’t agree with yours? Maybe you can’t answer my points in a convincing way?
I posted sensibly putting my side of the debate and taking the trouble to answer questions others asked, particularly in regard to my field of work, comprehensively and objectively. Sometimes even highlighting the good points about the EU and the compromises it faces.
You on the other hand just resort to insulting posts and effectively telling people to shut up. That generally means you lost the debate.
It’s a forum. Look it up in the dictionary. If you don’t like what I have to say I believe there is an ignore option.
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Doesn't matter what you or I think now, that's been debated to death. What's actually happening is parliament, both Commons and Lords have determined a No Deal brexit is off the table so why keep telling us of it's merits when it's not an option going forward? May's deal is what you've got for Leave, take it or leave it. Democracy didn't end June 2016, if you buy something and find out it's been oversold and not what you wanted, you can opt to take it back.
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
 
Kellfire said:
Your first sentence sums up your approach. We will be worse off.
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I guess that depends on whether you believe having others run our country makes us better off. Whether having to be subject to the laws and courts of others makes us better off. If not knowing what the population of our country will be next week and as a result not being able to effectively plan services for all those people, UK nationals or others, makes us better off. Or having unelected and unremovable officials running our union makes us better off. Or having ever more federalism makes us better off.

I do believe that most people who voted remain did so because they felt we would be financially better off staying in. I also believe those who voted to leave did so because they want this country to make its own laws etc. I did the latter and I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out. The world is much bigger than 27 local countries many of which are in turmoil and not doing too well financially, despite being propped up by the EU.

I guess that’s the crux of the whole debate.
 
maxfli65 said:
Doesn't matter what you or I think now, that's been debated to death. What's actually happening is parliament, both Commons and Lords have determined a No Deal brexit is off the table so why keep telling us of it's merits when it's not an option going forward? May's deal is what you've got for Leave, take it or leave it. Democracy didn't end June 2016, if you buy something and find out it's been oversold and not what you wanted, you can opt to take it back.
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
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Of course it matters what you or I think. You agree otherwise you wouldn’t be taking part in this debate or even reading the thread.
I agree it’s been debated to death. My point was it shouldn’t have been. The debate to stay or go was settled, or should have been in June 2016.
This isn’t like buying something from a shop. To use the same analogy if you exchange contracts on buying a house, you are buying it or you face being sued. The question was asked and assurances given the result would be enacted.
My question would be, did you vote in the referendum? If so, why?
If you didn’t expect the result to matter why bother wasting the shoe leather walking to the polling station?
If this decision is not enacted why bother ever voting again?
How long before our political masters will be bemoaning the apathy of the electorate yet again? Just when people had become engaged, particularly following the Scottish independence ballot. How long before accusations of no mandate are levelled at governments? How long before opinions and political views become even more polarised and the far right and far left enjoy popularity? Because that’s what happens when people feel they are being ignored and have no voice.
In my view anyone who thinks ignoring this result and democracy can be anything other catastrophic is deluding themselves, regardless of the way they voted.
 
bluewolf said:
Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side 👍
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Whilst I understand your reasoning, it’s a shame that the thread will lose one of its better contributors. In my opinion of course... 😁
 
Blue in Munich said:
Whilst I understand your reasoning, it’s a shame that the thread will lose one of its better contributors. In my opinion of course... 😁
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I'll still be reading the posts mate. I just don't want to get dragged into a downhill spiral that'll end up with people falling out etc. I just can't see how this situation gets sorted without infuriating a large section of the populace. And a Forum is definitely not the right place for reasoned debate 😂
 
maxfli65 said:
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
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You are right.... completely But we've already had it deomonstrated that a Leave Vote will not be implemented. Another Leave vote will mean a rerun of the past 2 and a half years! Project Fear 3, more legal stuff and no political will to leave,

I guess trust in politicans of any hue is foolhardy!
 
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