Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hacker Khan]

Is it just me or do some MP’s seem to be basing their deal agreement/disagreement on how they voted in the referendum rather than what the country and people need. Shouldn’t they be well passed that by now. Pro or anti exit it really doesn’t matter anymore

Politicians created the mess and can’t even agree that it needs cleaned up let alone the best way to clean it up!

It’s staggering that the people are not holding them to account more. Happy to get out of bed for a black friday deal but wont demand their MP sort out a brexit deal

You could argue that MPs are basing their thoughts/actions on what they believe in. And to them they may well think that is what the country needs. Hence why are there so polarised opinions?

We can demand all we like but the current lot with their current approach don't seem capable, I'd argue mostly as there was no proper planning for what would occur after the vote or after we triggered article 50.

Although having said that, I think Grieve's amendment yesterday is critical as it gives Parliament as a whole a lot more say in where we go if/when TMays plan is not agreed. So you could argue that they will then try and sort it out as a Parliament. Remember when we 1st started the process the intention was for the whole thing to be got through with no votes or parliamentary scrutiny, so we have come a long way since then. You can't help thinking that if they would have started off on that basis then we would be a lot further down the line than we are now.

But still does not get away from the fact that no matter what is 'sorted out' it will not please a large amount of people. And it will fester like an open sore, leaving us a very divided and in my opinion poorer (not just in the financial sense) country for it.

 

[clubchamp98]

May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we can’t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still won’t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasn’t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.

 

[bluewolf]

May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we can’t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still won’t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasn’t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.

Somewhat ironic that you say that people voted Leave to rein in Big Business. When the very people who are pushing in Parliament for No Deal are those in the pockets of Big Business who will benefit the most from the future changes.

Employment Law reviews, Low Taxation to encourage outside investment, Ultra Free Market economics to reduce the Welfare State.

It would appear, on the surface, that the people who will benefit the least are those same individuals who voted for it (in your argument).

 

[Hacker Khan]

May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we can’t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still won’t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasn’t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.

And this is all the fault of the EU how?

You say staying in the EU is not the answer but am genuinely interested in how leaving the EU will address the highlighted points? It's not as if the EU had aggressively promoted the rampant growth of capitalism as they are more socialist if anything. As Bluewolf correctly points out, a lot of the ERG lot want a low tax low regulation economy. Which I imagine will only exacerbate the highlighted points, not make them go away.

I'm not kind of arguing that the highlighted issues are concerns, but am just confused how leaving the EU will help change the structural issues with our economy or the rise of global multinationals that are increasingly dominating society. Again the EU seem to want to clip their wings if anything and stand up to the likes of the big tech companies.

 

[MegaSteve]

Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.

 

[woofers]

From a former PM of Australia.
I'm of the opinion that this is how France would deal with the EU if they decided to leave.

Brexit: The final deal?
Spectator Events

It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015

 

[bluewolf]

Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.

I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home.

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....

 

[MegaSteve]

I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home.

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....

As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...

 

[clubchamp98]

Somewhat ironic that you say that people voted Leave to rein in Big Business. When the very people who are pushing in Parliament for No Deal are those in the pockets of Big Business who will benefit the most from the future changes.

Employment Law reviews, Low Taxation to encourage outside investment, Ultra Free Market economics to reduce the Welfare State.

It would appear, on the surface, that the people who will benefit the least are those same individuals who voted for it (in your argument).

I never said they were right or wrong just that imo that’s why they wanted to leave.
There’s been lies on both sides and will continue to be as NO politician can be trusted to tell the truth.
But politicians could not do their job so they voted to ask the public and it backfired on them.
This sorry state were in proves they are inept.

Just one thing nobody has ever answered for me is.
We have people using foodbanks, working people who need benefits just to survive.etc!
There’s so much wrong with everything in this country at the moment.
But we have been in the EU for forty years so it’s not that good being a member or is it.

I wouldn’t put politicians in charge of a stagnight in a brewery as they would cock that up.

 

[clubchamp98]

As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...

Or Brussels

 

[bluewolf]

As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...

But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?

 

[clubchamp98]

I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home.

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....

In a nut shell it is your opinion which you are entitled to .
But the personal opinion of 52% of the UK is that they want to leave.
Be it right or wrong that’s how democracy works.

 

[clubchamp98]

But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?

BUT what if he’s not.
There is always a but, could , possibly.
That’s one of the main problems nobody knows!

Politicos are scared they may have to do a job and not just blame the EU for everything.

 

[MegaSteve]

But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?

With the likes of Major and Blair sloping off to Brussels to sign us up for 'deals' we were not consulted on...
I have my doubts...

 

[bluewolf]

In a nut shell it is your opinion which you are entitled to .
But the personal opinion of 52% of the UK is that they want to leave.
Be it right or wrong that’s how democracy works.

That's not my argument. I'm merely discussing a point that Megasteve raised. I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs of leaving...

 

[bluewolf]

BUT what if he’s not.
There is always a but, could , possibly.
That’s one of the main problems nobody knows!

Politicos are scared they may have to do a job and not just blame the EU for everything.

In your opinion.
Oh, and if nobody knows then what the hell have we been debating for the last 2 years.

Oh, and it's not the Politicos blaming the EU for everything. It would appear to be the Leave campaign and voters 🤔

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Yes, but only by decision. Failure to make a decision leads to No Deal. They (The Political Establishment) would have to propose and vote for Article 50 to be revoked or else we Exit with No Deal.

Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50 in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50 in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.

At the risk of coming across as a bit pedantic Scotland and NI can't remain in the EU as they are not currently members. In exactly the same way that England and Wales aren't members of the EU. The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave.

And if Scotland were to remain in the EU what would be your solution for the Scotland/England border?

 

[Hacker Khan]

At the risk of coming across as a bit pedantic Scotland and NI can't remain in the EU as they are not currently members. In exactly the same way that England and Wales aren't members of the EU. The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave.

And if Scotland were to remain in the EU what would be your solution for the Scotland/England border?

A hologram of Hadrian's Wall that can magically collect taxes and tarrifs from any vehicle passing it? A virtual Mel Gibson in full Braveheart outfit where you chuck coins up his kilt as you pass the border? There's got to be some kind of technology like this that will work, you need to think outside the box.

 

[clubchamp98]

Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50 in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.

Is there ?
There seems to be a majority to leave!