Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!

I took as my source the BBC News article I linked to - not sure how I misrepresented it. Apologies to the BBC if I did and to all here who bothered to read it. Must go check what I got wrong.

Meanwhile in the real world - The CEO of James Dyson's businesses (Jim Rowan) announces that Dyson will be manufacturing their new electric car in Singapore - that's the same massive Brexit-supporting Sir James Dyson - promoter of all things British manufacturing and building new deals across the world when out of the EU.

"...in the memo to staff, Rowan said the decision to choose Singapore was “complex, based on supply chains, access to markets, and the availability of the expertise that will help us achieve our ambitions”.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ars-in-singapore-with-launch-planned-for-2021

So a great big vote of confidence in Britain. And as an aside - pure coincidence of course that Singapore has just signed a significant framework trade agreement with the EU (been negotiating it since 2010)

...The EU will in turn drop tariffs on 84% of Singapore’ products with reductions of the remaining 16% within three to five years, giving the city-state’s exports a competitive boost.

http://www.atimes.com/article/singapore-and-the-eu-fly-the-flag-of-free-trade/

Now that would be handy for getting Dyson's cars into the EU.

Pure coincidence of course and nothing to do with Dyson maybe hedging a wee bit against the impact of a No Deal outcome.

 

[Mudball]

Hmmm...like liver disease and lung cancer? You might get a blue passport too!
Anyway any savings you may make on fags and booze duty will likely be negated by extra costs on flights once we're out, when flying to EU countries at least.

Dont have to worry 2 much about liver and lung diseases... remember the NHS will have 350m extra.. so funding coming at the right time. I told you Brexit has a lot of upsides.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Dyson has all of his mfr out in that region. Malaysia is his main plant I believe but he has a big R & D in Singapore already. He dumped Britain for mfr some time ago, long before Brexit was even an idea.

 

[Foxholer]

Dyson has all of his mfr out in that region. Malaysia is his main plant I believe but he has a big R & D in Singapore already. He dumped Britain for mfr some time ago, long before Brexit was even an idea.

For his sort of products, that part of the world is the obvious place for manufacturing! I'm disappointed he's also getting his electric cars manufactured there, but it's not altogether surprising.

I don't believe it has anything to do with Brexit though - simply sensible business!

 

[Foxholer]

I took as my source the BBC News article I linked to - not sure how I misrepresented it. Apologies to the BBC if I did and to all here who bothered to read it. Must go check what I got wrong.
...

See post 1199 (er how many? !!!)

 

[IanM]

So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice. Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on German exhange and interest rates.

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"

 

[Hobbit]

So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice. Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on German exhange and interest rates.

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"

The EU says the proposed budget would potentially see a rise in its deficit to 2.4%. The budget target is under 2%. The EU have said they won't accept that even though the permitted amount under the rules is no more than 3%.

The EU feel that as they're servicing a debt of 131% of national output they want to impose a lower limit on Italy.

As was announced last year, the EU wants a chancellor responsible for agreeing national budgets. Looks like its happened without it ever being accepted by the EU28.

 

[woody69]

So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice. Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on German exhange and interest rates.

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"

Why is this relevant?

 

[IanM]

It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.

 

[drdel]

It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.

Logic has long left the EU supporter's thinking.

It's the same with Scotland which wants to stop Parliament's control yet would accept EU dominance .

 

[Cherry13]

It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.

Haven’t they lost this control because they adopted the euro currency?

 

[IanM]

Haven’t they lost this control because they adopted the euro currency?

Yes......and in in addition, the "NATIONAL" spending plans are now under the control of Brussels. (without member states agreeing to it)

But I guess that's why Federalists wish to keep the talk on "trade" rather than this... but they will divert occassionally to call dissenters "racist!"

 

[woody69]

It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.

I'm sorry, but it's not really relevant at all to the UK and Brexit and I believe you are conflating two distinct ideas.

Italy agreed to abide by a common set of rules. If Italy wants to stay in the Eurozone and the EU then it has to abide by the common rules agreed by those bodies. It is the same for any international treaty or organisation. They signed up to the Euro, so them the breaks.

As the UK did not sign up to the Euro, the impact of those rules on our sovereignty is irrelevant.

If you are able to provide me with an example where the EU has affected our sovereignty that is relevant, I would be interested to learn more.

 

[IanM]

Well, you ignored the actual point I raised... so will you accept any others? (the threaholds are even listed...and they certainly didnt sign up to what they have had put upon them)

Eg... what do you know about the workings of the IMO? There's a freebie

 

[woody69]

Well, you ignored the actual point I raised... so will you accept any others...

Eg... what do you know about the workings of the IMO?

Apologies, but how did I ignore the point you raised? You said Remainers believe the EU does not impact national sovereignty or control a members internal affairs, by providing an example where they do, but never would for the UK, so it's fairly irrelevant as a reason for Brexit. I wanted to hear an example where it is relevant to the UK and so important it is worth giving up our membership over. I don't know who these remainers are that make such claims though because in any trade deal you have to give up an element of sovereignty, as you have to abide by the agreement and terms.

With regards to the IMO, if you are talking about the Common Fisheries Policy, then yes I agree reform on that is required but ultimately would agree with papers that have suggest it has helped, not harmed UK fisheries as an example in this article - https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-e...s-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0

 

[IanM]

1) You ignored the point about Italy not being allowed to set its own buget. Pretty fundamantal right of an indendent country. The EU ignored entry conditions when it suited them, now they are imposing ratios (which Italy havent broken) over spending... I wonder if Italy will accept it. Do you think a UK post cancelation of Brexit will be permitted to stay outside the single currency?

2) No, the IMO has nothing to do with Fisheries Policy, but test you opinion in a fishing community and you'd have a fun conversation! Clue.(apoligies clue removed in case I am in breach of something!)

Remain keep banging on about all the "bad laws" the nasty Tories will pass when we leave the EU, but then insist that no impostion on our laws has happened when the Soverignty discussion comes up. Come on chaps, which is it? Cant be both?

Couple of easy ones... they have controls over ou taxation, trade deals and the fact that EU law superceeds UK where confict exists might be a smidge of an imposition!

There are plenty more for later....

 

[Foxholer]

...
If you are able to provide me with an example where the EU has affected our sovereignty that is relevant, I would be interested to learn more.

EVERY ECJ ruling that has gone against the UK Government!

Now, I'm not saying I believe those rulings were wrong - in fact, I believe all those I know about were 'correct' decisions! But they were all examples where EU law overides UK law (and you can replace 'law' with, the more emotional, 'sovereignity' if you wish!).

The UK government's ham-fisted, arrogant approach to getting rid of Abu Hamza (and, likewise, attempts to deport his family) are classic examples! And May was at the heart of this action!

 

[Old Skier]

ham-fisted, arrogant approach to getting rid of Abu Hamza!

Having ham and fisted in the same sentence as Abu Hamzal - now that is funny.

 

[woody69]

1) You ignored the point about Italy not being allowed to set its own buget. Pretty fundamantal right of an indendent country. The EU ignored entry conditions when it suited them, now they are imposing ratios (which Italy havent broken) over spending... I wonder if Italy will accept it. Do you think a UK post cancelation of Brexit will be permitted to stay outside the single currency?

2) No, the IMO has nothing to do with Fisheries Policy, but test you opinion in a fishing community and you'd have a fun conversation! Clue.(apoligies clue removed in case I am in breach of something!)

Remain keep banging on about all the "bad laws" the nasty Tories will pass when we leave the EU, but then insist that no impostion on our laws has happened when the Soverignty discussion comes up. Come on chaps, which is it? Cant be both?

Couple of easy ones... they have controls over ou taxation, trade deals and the fact that EU law superceeds UK where confict exists might be a smidge of an imposition!

There are plenty more for later....

Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court.

They set minimums on taxation, each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.

 

[Hobbit]

Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court.

They set minimums on taxation, each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.

In the last 8 years the ECJ has ruled against HMRC to the tune of over £50bn worth of VAT and Corporation tax the UK govt has sought to claw back from multinational companies.

The UK has lost 77% of court cases with the EU in the last 40 years. A high figure, yes but its worth looking at what makes up those numbers and, specifically the win/loss rate since 2010. 40 years ago it was a 50/50 win rate. More recently its over 80% win rate for the EU. Is the UK justice system really that "unjust" that over 80% of its rulings are wrong? Two, non-financial, overrulings are just frightening - on two separate occasions a known terrorist, banned from entry into the UK, has had that ban overturned by the EU because he has an EU passport.

There's oodles of examples out there that show how often the ECJ overrules all the member states over financial issues. For example, VAT on certain items. The UK has seen a number of items added to the VAT list because it was deemed to have an unfair advantage in the manufacturing costs of those items.

Whilst there is a fairness is saying all taxes should be aligned across the EU, if you're a member, to say that the UK is free to set all its taxation is naive. Technically it can set its own rate but practically it can't because it will end up in court. You only have to look at the number of times the Irish govt has been in court over corporation tax, and the fines that have been levied against them, to realise a country can't just set tax rates without considering where those rates fit in with the rest of the EU.