Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[MegaSteve]

The EU negotiaters continue to endorse my view on what a wholly corrupt beaurocracy Brussels is...

 

[woody69]

There's an even simpler solution to the Irish border issue and that's the EU working constructively with the UK to ensure there's no hard border rather than constantly saying 'no and it's a UK problem!

As has been pointed out time and time again, EU has no hard border with Norway and Switzerland (who also have trade agreements) and these all appear to work without any problems whatsoever!!

Like a number of EU negotiations I've been involved in, the Commission continuously refuses to compromise, and then at the last minute there'll be 3 or 4 days of intense negotiations, quite often running through the night, and then there'll be some kind of deal.

Makes me quite angry when people are very quick to pass all the blame on UK Government and who have clearly had absolutely no experience of seeing how the EU actually operates and how obstinate EU Commission officials are. This is supposed to be a negotiation, which means compromise and working together constructively.

It really isn't that simple between Norway and Switzerland in terms of a template for NI / ROI is it though seeing as the UK do not want to sign up to the 4 freedoms of the single market, that Norway have done.

The EU have been quite firm on protecting their 4 freedoms, so why should they waiver from that just because we are asking for something that isn't on the table and never has been.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

It really isn't that simple between Norway and Switzerland in terms of a template for NI / ROI is it though seeing as the UK do not want to sign up to the 4 freedoms of the single market, that Norway have done.

The EU have been quite firm on protecting their 4 freedoms, so why should they waiver from that just because we are asking for something that isn't on the table and never has been.

No but what we have said - right from the start - is a comprehensive FTA between the EU and UK that would benefit both parties given the importance of trade between both parties and the levels of trade between both. This is easily achievable and therefore would also solve a number of border issues in respect of trade.

 

[User62651]

No but what we have said - right from the start - is a comprehensive FTA between the EU and UK that would benefit both parties given the importance of trade between both parties and the levels of trade between both. This is easily achievable and therefore would also solve a number of border issues in respect of trade.

FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.

 

[jp5]

Great saying that a free trade deal is achievable and worthwhile, but just how long would it take to negotiate? We'd also have to find some negotiators from somewhere...

Meanwhile, what happens from 31st March next year?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Er....Without challenging Pieman's integrity, how do you actually know they are 'FACTUAL'? They simply happen to concur with your OPINION!

And I have responded with what I hope are facts abut the EU/Switzerland and EU/Norway borders and what would seem to make them unacceptable model solutions for the EU/NI border.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The EU negotiaters continue to endorse my view on what a wholly corrupt beaurocracy Brussels is...

In that they continue to negotiate for the benefit of the EU27 countries to whom they are accountable and if mutual benefit can be found for the UK then all the better? Because if EU27 national leaders do not like what the EU negotiators come up with they won't be very keen to endorse it.

 

[Hobbit]

FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.

There are 34 countries outside of Europe with FTA’s with Europe. There are a whole host of countries currently negotiating FTA’s with Europe.

And the common theme with virtually every single one? No signing up to the 4 founding principles of the EU.

 

[Hobbit]

In that they continue to negotiate for the benefit of the EU27 countries to whom they are accountable and if mutual benefit can be found for the UK then all the better? Because if EU27 national leaders do not like what the EU negotiators come up with they won't be very keen to endorse it.

Some of the EU27 National leaders are already unhappy with the negotiations. Spain has already agreed the details of the relationship with the U.K. over Gibraltar. And very early this year they told Tusk what they intended to do re holiday makers from the U.K. accessing Spain.

Living outside the U.K. I get the EU slant. Don’t think they are united because they are not.

 

[IanM]

Don't try presenting balance and logic.... they wont listen.

 

[woody69]

Don't try presenting balance and logic.... they wont listen.

The irony is strong with this one...

 

[Deleted member 1418]

FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.

Hobbit has already covered this point. The whole point of FTAs are that they benefit both parties with regard to trade. The EU has numerous FTAs and other preferential trade agreements so absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be one with the UK given the importance of UK market, goods and services to a number of EU members states; and vice versa.

Great saying that a free trade deal is achievable and worthwhile, but just how long would it take to negotiate? We'd also have to find some negotiators from somewhere...

Meanwhile, what happens from 31st March next year?

The UK has negotiators - they've been negotiating with EU Commission officials for some time. To say that we haven't is just not correct.

Basically the length of time an FTA takes to negotiate depends on the collective will of both parties to achieve one. There are a number of reasons why they appear to take time, for example EU FTAs have to ratified by each MS (who in some cases have more than one institutional body who are also required to do so - the Wallonian Government blocking CETA is an example); and what they actually cover and include. I've spoken to a colleague working in DIT, who used to work for the Australian Government on their trade deals, and he said that the US/Australia trade deal took 9 months to complete - from first discussions to signing.

And as a measure of good faith, whilst negotiations are taking place, I believe that both parties can offer preferential arrangements in relation to trade.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I see some Brexit supporting Tory MP's are talking about knifing and hanging our Prime Minister.
Dreadful language from people who should know a great deal better.
I hope their constituents take notice for the next election

 

[Mudball]

I finally found a good result from Brexit.. Looking to buy some Duty Free alcohol at Heathrow yesterday... went something like this.

Me: Flying to EU, can I buy & pick up on the way back
Duty Free Guy: Sure.. you can pick up as much as you like. Where are you flying to?
Me: Switzerland
DFG: Sorry that offer is only for EU flights.. so does not apply as Switzerland is outside the EU. So you cant buy & pick up later.
Me: Ok. No worries, I will skip
DFG: Don’t worry, after next year when we are outside the EU, all this will be possible!!

So looking fwd to buying all the alcohol & ciggis at Heathrow… Let the good times roll in

 

[Foxholer]

Wrong wrong wrong
and SILH will be along shortly to tell you why.
Unless of course he's got you on 'ignore' so he doesn't have to read the FACTUAL posts of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

And I have responded with what I hope are facts abut the EU/Switzerland and EU/Norway borders and what would seem to make them unacceptable model solutions for the EU/NI border.

Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!

 

[Foxholer]

Hobbit has already covered this point. The whole point of FTAs are that they benefit both parties with regard to trade. The EU has numerous FTAs and other preferential trade agreements so absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be one with the UK given the importance of UK market, goods and services to a number of EU members states; and vice versa.

The UK has negotiators - they've been negotiating with EU Commission officials for some time. To say that we haven't is just not correct.

Basically the length of time an FTA takes to negotiate depends on the collective will of both parties to achieve one. There are a number of reasons why they appear to take time, for example EU FTAs have to ratified by each MS (who in some cases have more than one institutional body who are also required to do so - the Wallonian Government blocking CETA is an example); and what they actually cover and include. I've spoken to a colleague working in DIT, who used to work for the Australian Government on their trade deals, and he said that the US/Australia trade deal took 9 months to complete - from first discussions to signing.

And as a measure of good faith, whilst negotiations are taking place, I believe that both parties can offer preferential arrangements in relation to trade.

This would be the 'ideal' scenario - and has been May's stated objective for the entire negotiating period.

However, it seems to me that the EU is witholding this 'mutually beneficial' approach! While it is actually 'more beneficial' to the EU in pure £/Euro value, it's considerably less as a percentage of total exports/imports for the EU than the UK. For that reason, the EU probably believe it's negotiating from a significantly stronger position! And, I believe, certain parts of the EU would be quite happy to reduce the dominance of London in the Financial Services area!

I'm pretty certain any UK FTA deal, whatever it turns out to be, will also have to be ratified as a 'mixed' agreement, so ratification by every member state will be required. However, the EU can apply the FTA deal provisionally. These are standard EU pocedures.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!

Sorry - is that one aimed at me? If so I was just trying to highlight that movement of goods between EU and non-EU countries happens every day and doesn't necessarily mean lengthy delays or problems, without getting into the complexities of the Norway/Switzerland models.

 

[User62651]

I finally found a good result from Brexit.. Looking to buy some Duty Free alcohol at Heathrow yesterday... went something like this.

Me: Flying to EU, can I buy & pick up on the way back
Duty Free Guy: Sure.. you can pick up as much as you like. Where are you flying to?
Me: Switzerland
DFG: Sorry that offer is only for EU flights.. so does not apply as Switzerland is outside the EU. So you cant buy & pick up later.
Me: Ok. No worries, I will skip
DFG: Don’t worry, after next year when we are outside the EU, all this will be possible!!

So looking fwd to buying all the alcohol & ciggis at Heathrow… Let the good times roll in

Hmmm...like liver disease and lung cancer? You might get a blue passport too!
Anyway any savings you may make on fags and booze duty will likely be negated by extra costs on flights once we're out, when flying to EU countries at least.

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry - is that one aimed at me? If so I was just trying to highlight that movement of goods between EU and non-EU countries happens every day and doesn't necessarily mean lengthy delays or problems, without getting into the complexities of the Norway/Switzerland models.

Er... Yes! Unfortunately (hopefully not maliciously) by 'not getting into the complexities' - aka explaining why - significant info, that SILH rightly pointed out, was 'hidden'! While the forum is not a law court, the concept of 'The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' would seem an important phrase when posting 'facts'. That phrase doesn't apply to opinion of course, but, for someone who seems to be at the 'bleeding edge', it would be good to know which 'style' you are posting at any point. Nothing personal btw!

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Er... Yes! Unfortunately (hopefully not maliciously) by 'not getting into the complexities' - aka explaining why - significant info, that SILH rightly pointed out, was 'hidden'! While the forum is not a law court, the concept of 'The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' would seem an important phrase when posting 'facts'. That phrase doesn't apply to opinion of course, but, for someone who seems to be at the 'bleeding edge', it would be good to know which 'style' you are posting at any point. Nothing personal btw!

Ah, ok. No problem. But I haven't posted anything that is not untrue. As I said, was just trying to highlight that certain aspects of trade between countries aren't as difficult as some want to make out, without having to go into all the minute detail. Think Hobbit and others who have been at the sharp end of import/export situations have explained this previously.

Anyway I think I've had enough of this thread now as trying to put across a balanced perspective clearly doesn't work.

And besides, being at the 'bleeding edge' means that there is a lot I'd love to say, but for obvious reasons I cannot.