Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought

You just can’t admit the EU are ever wrong. You blame the UK for every little thing yet when it’s the UK that shifts it’s position to accommodate an EU position, and the EU moves the goal posts they’re just changing their mind. How bloody unprofessional!

I’ll make it simple for you. When you declare a position in a negotiation you are also declaring your credibility. If you then backtrack you lose the trust of the party you are negotiating with.

I can can see why you’ve never been in a position to negotiate anything of importance. You are clueless in the extreme. I wouldn’t trust you to be a lollipop man at a school crossing.

The EU are playing with fire. They might see a Cabinet in disarray but they appear not to realise that it’s not the Cabinet that decides the way forward. It’s the wider Tory party that, if anything, is becoming stronger because of the EU’s intransigence.

If the EU doesn’t budge it will be a no deal Brexit, and the EU will be to blame for not negotiating in good faith. The negotiating in good faith is the bit you either don’t grasp or deliberately won’t accept that the EU aren’t doing.

 

[IanM]

If you go to "negotiate" with a fixed postion that you wont change, negotiation doesnt happen.

EU needs UK cash to keep it at current levels of insolvency and as the French put it "pour encourager les autres!"

So dont expect any flexibility.

UK PM is a Remainer. So her position is also clear. Stay in as far as possible and brand it as a "pragmatic approach to Brexit."


Not sure either party's position is that achievable... but historically, the EU has always won.

 

[drdel]

I'll say again _ read Varoufakis's book.

His predictions about negotiating with EU representatives is absolutely on the money. Their strategy is simply to ignore any suggestions by the other party and play a blame game. Anyone who has tried to negotiate a deal with a French company with have (IMO) seen the same strategy. Barnier is just stone walling yet suggests the UK is devoid of suggestions.

The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.

Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!

No need Raab C. Brexit is on the case.:lol:

 

[IanM]

The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.

No chance... the other net contributers are panicking about higher subs and those with their hand outs are worried that the meal ticket is ending!

....Junker said - "there can be no democratic choice against the EU hic! burp!" Ok, I added the last bit !

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sounds like our new FS is not a fan of No Deal

He warned of "unintended geopolitical consequences" with just Vladimir Putin "rejoicing" if there was no deal.

Mr Hunt said a no deal would be "challenging" but the UK would still "thrive economically"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44918262

Yes Jeremy - challenging indeed - and we'd thrive economically? - yes Jeremy - though you have to say that...

 

[Foxholer]

I'll say again _ read Varoufakis's book.

His predictions about negotiating with EU representatives is absolutely on the money. Their strategy is simply to ignore any suggestions by the other party and play a blame game. Anyone who has tried to negotiate a deal with a French company with have (IMO) seen the same strategy. Barnier is just stone walling yet suggests the UK is devoid of suggestions.

The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.

Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!

Notwithstanding his courageous attempt, this was the, pretty much bankrupt by policy, Greek economy he was trying to rescue! Stonewalling by the EU was actually in the 'best interests' of the rest of the EU members, so quite understandable! It's recveived something around 260Billion Euros of bailout! That's 20 years of UK's contribution to the EU!

But I'm inclined to agree that EU 'negotiation' is likely to be to stonewall/obfuscate! UK negotiators should plan a policy to counter this!

 

[drdel]

Notwithstanding his courageous attempt, this was the, pretty much bankrupt by policy, Greek economy he was trying to rescue! Stonewalling by the EU was actually in the 'best interests' of the rest of the EU members, so quite understandable! It's recveived something around 260Billion Euros of bailout! That's 20 years of UK's contribution to the EU!

But I'm inclined to agree that EU 'negotiation' is likely to be to stonewall/obfuscate! UK negotiators should plan a policy to counter this!

I was not drawing any comparison with Greece and the UK merely his conclusions about his experience with EU's dysfunctional management and decision making processes.

 

[SocketRocket]

Sounds like our new FS is not a fan of No Deal

He warned of "unintended geopolitical consequences" with just Vladimir Putin "rejoicing" if there was no deal.

Mr Hunt said a no deal would be "challenging" but the UK would still "thrive economically"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44918262

Yes Jeremy - challenging indeed - and we'd thrive economically? - yes Jeremy - though you have to say that...

I don't believe there would ever be a 'No Deal' as such. I can see a situation arising where there will be no agreement on trade and customs and we will leave using WTO tariffs but will negotiate many free trade agreements fairly quickly. We will probably make agreements for EU and UK residents rights, air travel, security and others though. Negotiations will be fraught and bullish right up to the end but there will be a deal of some sorts struck at the eleventh hour. At some point we will need to make it clear that the UK will make foreign investment very attractive through low corporation tax and business incentives, something the EU are already spooked about and IMO would try to stop with trade agreements.

 

[drdel]

I don't believe there would ever be a 'No Deal' as such. I can see a situation arising where there will be no agreement on trade and customs and we will leave using WTO tariffs but will negotiate many free trade agreements fairly quickly. We will probably make agreements for EU and UK residents rights, air travel, security and others though. Negotiations will be fraught and bullish right up to the end but there will be a deal of some sorts struck at the eleventh hour. At some point we will need to make it clear that the UK will make foreign investment very attractive through low corporation tax and business incentives, something the EU are already spooked about and IMO would try to stop with trade agreements.

Which is what worries Germany and others and should not worry the UK. Even a 20% drop in EU trade will only be a 4% impact on UK GDP but for some of the EU 27 its serious. At least the UK will have RoW as a market.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You just can’t admit the EU are ever wrong. You blame the UK for every little thing yet when it’s the UK that shifts it’s position to accommodate an EU position, and the EU moves the goal posts they’re just changing their mind. How bloody unprofessional!

I’ll make it simple for you. When you declare a position in a negotiation you are also declaring your credibility. If you then backtrack you lose the trust of the party you are negotiating with.

I can can see why you’ve never been in a position to negotiate anything of importance. You are clueless in the extreme. I wouldn’t trust you to be a lollipop man at a school crossing.

The EU are playing with fire. They might see a Cabinet in disarray but they appear not to realise that it’s not the Cabinet that decides the way forward. It’s the wider Tory party that, if anything, is becoming stronger because of the EU’s intransigence.

If the EU doesn’t budge it will be a no deal Brexit, and the EU will be to blame for not negotiating in good faith. The negotiating in good faith is the bit you either don’t grasp or deliberately won’t accept that the EU aren’t doing.

It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong. It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU. Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms. Why would we be surprised if the EU seemed to be moving the goalposts. After all - I was told endlessly that that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and that a No Deal would be terrible for the EU.

Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the £39bn.

 

[USER1999]

...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the £39bn.

Because it might be in our best interest to do so.

I guess you think the EU would never play games with us, and everything they say is true?

 

[ColchesterFC]

Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the £39bn.

Didn't David Davis also have the same stance. "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" I believe was the quote. And the above shows the extreme bias you have towards the EU. When it is the EU that changes its mind or its position then you justify that by saying....

"We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought"

But when it's the UK you use words like "renege" on the agreement. Why isn't it called negotiation, a change of mind or adjusting our position? You are so blinded by your hatred of the thought of leaving the EU that you have become a complete hypocrite.

 

[Hobbit]

It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong. It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU. Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms. Why would we be surprised if the EU seemed to be moving the goalposts. After all - I was told endlessly that that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and that a No Deal would be terrible for the EU.

Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the £39bn.

Yes we knew of the 4 Freedoms, but guess what, they are already negotiating on the Freedom of movement. Both sides recognise the need for movement on this issue. And then there's the fisheries policy that the EU have said very clearly that they want nothing to change.

When it suits the EU they are more than willing to compromise their red lines, just as they did when they let in a tranche of countries from Eastern Europe. Not one singe country met the financial requirements to join. Further to that, most (then current) EU countries put restricted movement on people from those countries.

The EU doesn't have hard red lines, unless it suits them to do so. And at this moment in time it suits your argument to say "the computer said no."

As for the list of names/MP's you've posted up; plenty of people do trust them. Just because they're not your flavour, nor mine, doesn't mean they don't represent a significant number of people.

The £39bn; some of that is owed, e.g. elements of ongoing projects and pensions. But all of it? If the EU won't play ball, why should the UK? Oh, I forgot, you always side with the EU even when they play dirty.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Looks like Raab C Brexit is no longer in charge of negotiations.
That was a very short tenure.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Looks like Raab C Brexit is no longer in charge of negotiations.
That was a very short tenure.

ah yes - as posted under 'May the PM' Draab is #2

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes we knew of the 4 Freedoms, but guess what, they are already negotiating on the Freedom of movement. Both sides recognise the need for movement on this issue. And then there's the fisheries policy that the EU have said very clearly that they want nothing to change.

When it suits the EU they are more than willing to compromise their red lines, just as they did when they let in a tranche of countries from Eastern Europe. Not one singe country met the financial requirements to join. Further to that, most (then current) EU countries put restricted movement on people from those countries.

The EU doesn't have hard red lines, unless it suits them to do so. And at this moment in time it suits your argument to say "the computer said no."

As for the list of names/MP's you've posted up; plenty of people do trust them. Just because they're not your flavour, nor mine, doesn't mean they don't represent a significant number of people.

The £39bn; some of that is owed, e.g. elements of ongoing projects and pensions. But all of it? If the EU won't play ball, why should the UK? Oh, I forgot, you always side with the EU even when they play dirty.

Of course they will...exactly what anyone in a negotiation would do...

And as for these MPs - well I'll add Leadsom, Bone, Cash and Jenkin to that list - and those who believe everything - or even much - of what they say - then no wonder we are in a mess.

On the £39bn - I thought the consensus was that this figure was actually not that much more than we were obliged to fork up under agreements we have signed up to - some out to the end of a Transition period. And so we walk away from these contractual obligations - what does that say about the UK as a trusted party in any future agreement?

Of course I see this whole shambles in a negative light - nothing I have heard in the last two years convinces me that otherwise, it remains that at best we are going to be worse off for very little benefit - at the worst - a No Deal resulting in a pretty calamitous mess, with the only benefit being some notion of having 'regained control and regained our sovereignty'. Well that'll console all those who could well lose their jobs as they head down the road to sign on.

Listen to JR-M on Ch4 News recently avoid saying he'd resign if things looked to be going badly wrong after UK leaves the EU - the creep is happy to sacrifice your job or mine - but his own? Not on your nellie.

 

[Hobbit]

Of course they will...exactly what anyone in a negotiation would do...

.

I've taken the first line from your response. Its a pretty simple, straightforward sentence. Very unambiguous.

Now go and read what you posted in #291, which I quoted in #294.

Specifically the bit I've highlighted and underlined, "It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong. It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU. Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms."


You say they won't compromise the red lines, and now you are saying they will. You don't even know from one day to the next, or in this case within 4 hours, what you are saying. You've contradicted yourself in an effort to say the EU will negotiate when previously you said they won't. And how does that make your argument credible?

 

[Old Skier]

You say they won't compromise the red lines, and now you are saying they will. You don't even know from one day to the next, or in this case within 4 hours, what you are saying. You've contradicted yourself in an effort to say the EU will negotiate when previously you said they won't. And how does that make your argument credible?

Perhaps he's an EU negotiator. His flip flop posts certainly come from the same script.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Anyone started stockpiling food and medicine yet.
To me Raab C did not sound tooo positive with his ' make sure we will have adequate food' comment.
Remember, he is a Tory and they lie quite naturally.