Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Old Skier]

Why will we; if we now enjoy the tariff free trade deal negotiated by the EU why can we not agree with Japan to keep that when we leave the EU?

Stop making sense. We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay. The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.

 

[bluewolf]

Stop making sense. We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay. The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.

So you're saying that Remainers are cowards now are you?

 

[Old Skier]

So you're saying that Remainers are cowards now are you?

Not sure where you even see that but if it suits your agenda crack on.

 

[bluewolf]

Not sure where you even see that but if it suits your agenda crack on.

I see it in the words you have written. It's quite clear. Thanks for allowing me to crack on though 👍👍

Edit.. I'll enlighten...

Remainers think that these obstacles are too big to overcome.

This country is full of people who take the easy option once it gets difficult.

Therefore, Remainers are people who want to take the easy option now that it's got difficult.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Stop making sense. We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay. The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.

Good words of wisdom for me to remember there when I have a choice at work of earning pretty much the same amount of money and pretty much the same benefits in two different ways. So what'll I choose - the hard and painful way - trying to work out how to do things as I go along - or the relatively straightforward way doing things the way as they've been set out for years?

You know what - maybe I'll just choose the latter...what a coward am I for not putting myself through the wringer...

 

[Old Skier]

If the pair of you would like to point out where I said coward please feel free.

Or is it to difficult.

 

[Hobbit]

Good words of wisdom for me to remember there when I have a choice at work of earning pretty much the same amount of money and pretty much the same benefits in two different ways. So what'll I choose - the hard and painful way - trying to work out how to do things as I go along - or the relatively straightforward way doing things the way as they've been set out for years?

You know what - maybe I'll just choose the latter...what a coward am I for not putting myself through the wringer...

And in October 2015, when I had the chance to retire quite comfortably, all the plans were in place and my ‘notice’ was in, I chose to sell up and move to Aberdeen. A failing division in a struggling industry.

Long hours and oodles of stress. Difficult decisions and sackings to be made. Not pleasant at times but hugely fulfilling when the business was well in profit, structured and dynamic when I handed over the reins.

Both yours and my analogy are weak and have little bearing on what the UK can or can’t achieve. But everything in life can be achieved if you have the balls for it. Some people don’t, and will forever achieve mediocrity.

 

[bluewolf]

If the pair of you would like to point out where I said coward please feel free.

Or is it to difficult.

Of course, you are correct. You didn't use the word "coward". Now then, does that make you feel better.

You used the term "taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them".

So please explain what that means if it's not too difficult.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And in October 2015, when I had the chance to retire quite comfortably, all the plans were in place and my ‘notice’ was in, I chose to sell up and move to Aberdeen. A failing division in a struggling industry.

Long hours and oodles of stress. Difficult decisions and sackings to be made. Not pleasant at times but hugely fulfilling when the business was well in profit, structured and dynamic when I handed over the reins.

Both yours and my analogy are weak and have little bearing on what the UK can or can’t achieve. But everything in life can be achieved if you have the balls for it. Some people don’t, and will forever achieve mediocrity.

Fair enough - and so we have JR-M, Johnson, the ERG et al who would have us choose the hard way that might see the UK in a better place in the end. But in the hard struggle there will be to get to their promised lands, these Generals will be on their horses high on a hill, safe and sound watching the infantry battle, get killed and injured - for the sake of what might be and what they wished to achieve.

So in all your struggles making the business better you know how painful that was - and your decisions were difficult and painful for you I have no doubt - but perhaps not as difficult and painful as the lives of those who were sacked on the way.

And I for one cannot agree with a vision that might in some current unquantifiable way result in a better situation for the UK than we have today - as there is a high probability that many ordinary people will suffer badly along that way.

 

[SocketRocket]

Of course, you are correct. You didn't use the word "coward". Now then, does that make you feel better.

You used the term "taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them".

So please explain what that means if it's not too difficult.

I would suggest he was referring to some people preferring to take the option of least resistance rather than looking for opportunities that may be difficult to apply in the short term but have the chance to produce enhanced rewards with an entrepreneurial spirit. This is nothing to do with cowardice but attitude to risk. 'Per ardua ad astra'

 

[bluewolf]

I would suggest he was referring to some people preferring to take the option of least resistance rather than looking for opportunities that may be difficult to apply in the short term but have the chance to produce enhanced rewards with an entrepreneurial spirit. This is nothing to do with cowardice but attitude to risk. 'Per ardua ad astra'

That's a lovely answer. It's not actually what he said, but it's lovely 👍

Your answer is lovely and specific, relating to a particular process. OS's statement was quite a lot more vague and dismissive. He stated "The way of many in this Country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them."

The use of "these days" is interesting too. He seems to be saying that it wasn't the case in other times. Almost as though he's one of those people who looks back fondly on the past and thinks it was better. I'd be interested in what he thinks was better about those days.

Of course, we could be over analysing a statement that was just very poorly worded 👍👍

 

[Hobbit]

Fair enough - and so we have JR-M, Johnson, the ERG et al who would have us choose the hard way that might see the UK in a better place in the end. But in the hard struggle there will be to get to their promised lands, these Generals will be on their horses high on a hill, safe and sound watching the infantry battle, get killed and injured - for the sake of what might be and what they wished to achieve.

So in all your struggles making the business better you know how painful that was - and your decisions were difficult and painful for you I have no doubt - but perhaps not as difficult and painful as the lives of those who were sacked on the way.

And I for one cannot agree with a vision that might in some current unquantifiable way result in a better situation for the UK than we have today - as there is a high probability that many ordinary people will suffer badly along that way.

In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you don’t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didn’t make the right choice.

 

[drdel]

That's a lovely answer. It's not actually what he said, but it's lovely 👍

Your answer is lovely and specific, relating to a particular process. OS's statement was quite a lot more vague and dismissive. He stated "The way of many in this Country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them."

The use of "these days" is interesting too. He seems to be saying that it wasn't the case in other times. Almost as though he's one of those people who looks back fondly on the past and thinks it was better. I'd be interested in what he thinks was better about those days.

Of course, we could be over analysing a statement that was just very poorly worded 👍👍

Good grief. I thought this was the First Rule of the forum !!

 

[bluewolf]

Good grief. I thought this was the First Rule of the forum !!

It passes a few hours whilst I'm in full "Heading to Cornwall" mode. Beats work (which is what I'm supposed to be doing) 😉

 

[hors limite]

In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you don’t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didn’t make the right choice.

Picture Polling Stations the length and breadth of the country with leavers stiffening their upper lips muttering bravely " per ardua ad astra". Brexit has really driven people bonkers. I have heard every unlikely reason for voting leave but this nonsense has never featured - other spherical objects like taking back control and "sovereignty" but not this.
I have asked questions about trade, tariffs, inward investment and the rest and these questions are conveniently ignored. The leavers on this forum are more interested in deflecting the real questions and drifting off into the most convoluted arguments about process. My last post provoked a response that told me that "Brexit is not just about being economically better off". That is wrong, leavers didn't vote leave to be worse off. Many people in the UK have seen living standards stagnate and for some decline. Austerity continues. I think it was an adviser to Clinton who told us " It's the economy stupid".
I could give you many quotes from the architects of leave but in the interests of brevity - Liam Fox -"The free trade deal with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history".
I'd like to see an opinion poll on whether people would be prepared to risk their jobs or see their living standards decline in exchange for an ideologically hard Brexit.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I could give you many quotes from the architects of leave but in the interests of brevity - Liam Fox -"The free trade deal with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history".
I'd like to see an opinion poll on whether people would be prepared to risk their jobs or see their living standards decline in exchange for an ideologically hard Brexit.

That's true, it should be. We want to continue selling to them and they want to continue selling to us. The IMF have produced a report saying that a hard Brexit would hit the EU economy hard and reduce growth by 1.5% with Ireland suffering particularly badly with a 4% drop. Also that countries such as Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark face being hit harder than Finland or Italy due to the amount of trade between the countries. It wasn't mentioned in the report, as it was focused on the EU, but I would assume that the UK economy would also take a pretty big hit to growth from a hard Brexit. Therefore to avoid damaging the economies of all EU countries and the UK the free trade deal should be easy to agree. Unless the EU decide to cut off their nose to spite their face and punish the UK for daring to leave. The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?

 

[bluewolf]

That's true, it should be. We want to continue selling to them and they want to continue selling to us. The IMF have produced a report saying that a hard Brexit would hit the EU economy hard and reduce growth by 1.5% with Ireland suffering particularly badly with a 4% drop. Also that countries such as Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark face being hit harder than Finland or Italy due to the amount of trade between the countries. It wasn't mentioned in the report, as it was focused on the EU, but I would assume that the UK economy would also take a pretty big hit to growth from a hard Brexit. Therefore to avoid damaging the economies of all EU countries and the UK the free trade deal should be easy to agree. Unless the EU decide to cut off their nose to spite their face and punish the UK for daring to leave. The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?

If I was negotiating a trade deal I'd be looking to take advantage of the fact that the biggest hit by far will be felt by the UK.

 

[jp5]

The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?

We could have one just like the Japan deal. The issue is it wouldn't cover 80% of our economy and it would require significant new customs infrastructure which the UK Gvmnt seems unwilling to put in place. Ultimately what sort of Brexit we have will depend on the Irish border situation - two years on and there still seems to be no acceptable solution to anyone.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you don’t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didn’t make the right choice.

The foot soldier believed the politicians when they were told why we must fight. The politicians and generals decided what they must achieve - and on the battlefield the generals decided that the 500yds of land was worth fighting over; the foot soldier believed them and, in their belief and conviction that what they were doing was right and was what was necessary, they did what they were told - stoically accepting whatever fate awaited and proud of their part. And the Generals stood by and watched as the foot soldiers struggled and battled their way across the land to achieve what the politicians and generals wanted. Many, many foot soldiers died and were injured - but few politicians and generals followed them to their graves and into their disabilities. And for what? To satisfy the wishes of politicians and the warped strategies of the generals to no real end.

And so to today - we have the likes of Johnson, Gove and the ERG, and we have the Leave voting great British public. And the old adage of Lions led by Donkeys seems to me somewhat horribly apt.

 

[ColchesterFC]

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If I was negotiating a trade deal I'd be looking to take advantage of the fact that the biggest hit by far will be felt by the UK.

So would I, but it's a question of how far you are prepared to push. The Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Irish etc might be a little miffed if by looking to take advantage it led to significant hit to their economies if there was a No Deal outcome.