Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 1147]

Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry says a further referendum, rather than an election, would be the best route forward - adding it is “within our grasp".

Which actually means "an election would mean my constituents would kick me out of a job so I don't want any part of one thank you"

Surely, if all she cares about is staying in Parliament, she could have just voted for the deals, remained a Tory and carried on as she was?

 

[patricks148]

I guess labours PFI contracts have done wonders for the nhs budgets

what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?

 

[drdel]

Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry says a further referendum, rather than an election, would be the best route forward - adding it is “within our grasp".

Which actually means "an election would mean my constituents would kick me out of a job so I don't want any part of one thank you"

And SNP wants to ensure younger voters (JC wants the same but Labour will abstain!)) and EU nationals are given a vote in order to support Swinson - I wonder what other creative stuff will be next. Its funny Bercow has not declared himself OFF on 31st.

I might need, or I might not or maybe I will have an aspirin - sorry I've got an attack of the JCs !!!

 

[Hobbit]

what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?

Maybe where you are but Labour closed 5 hospitals in and around Middlesbrough in the early 00's.

 

[Dando]

what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?

Maybe not lumber the nhs with huge great sodding debts for years, just because it made them look good as it was paid for off the books.
Those contracts were absolutely horrendous

 

[SocketRocket]

You can’t use that argument comparing the Referendum to other Elections, every other Election will have People associated with Parties who produce manifesto’s and have a detailed current history.
The Referendum was unique in that it crossed Political Lines, it wasn’t fought under normal circumstances and ultimately there wasn’t an individual being held responsible for either side.
Yes I agree it is down to individuals to do their own research etc, but let’s not pretend the Referendum Campaign was genuine from either side.
Then on the ballot paper was a very basic question to which the answer was anything but basic.

I assure you I can make that comparison and I am. The referendum was no different to an election, the manifestos were the benefits stated for remain and leave, either accept the stated benefits of being in the EU plus Camerons negotiated new changes verses leaving and taking back control of laws, money, trade etc. What do you mean by an individual being held responsible, we're not a dictatorship, our government is held responsible for running the country (or as it currently is, Parliament).
I assume your ballot paper in elections has the same binary choice as mine, pick someone you want to represent you. You dont then get a plethora of options on how you would like to be represented. Have you ever seen an election thats genuine from either side and I never suggested it was.

 

[SocketRocket]

what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?

Conservatives shut down a number of archaic Mental Hospitals that were horrible institutions in place of the care in the community schemes, I think this was a progressive move. They also closed a number of military hospitals and moved military care into hospitals with specialist care for the trauma type injuries normally associated with the military. Im not sure if this was a great sucsess or not, maybe some on here will have had experience.

 

[Hobbit]

You can’t use that argument comparing the Referendum to other Elections, every other Election will have People associated with Parties who produce manifesto’s and have a detailed current history.
The Referendum was unique in that it crossed Political Lines, it wasn’t fought under normal circumstances and ultimately there wasn’t an individual being held responsible for either side.
Yes I agree it is down to individuals to do their own research etc, but let’s not pretend the Referendum Campaign was genuine from either side.
Then on the ballot paper was a very basic question to which the answer was anything but basic.

Both the Tories and Labour campaigned on a Remain platform. And both said they would respect the result post-vote. At first both did, but when May foolishly called a GE and to all intents and purposes lost pretty much all her power Labour smelled blood. Its been typical party politics ever since and a total pile of poo.

 

[clubchamp98]

Some good points.

On the issue of we don't know what the various options were that people wanted. That's an impossible circle to square once, and was made even more so once the waters were muddied by asking it. Was it deliberately asked, post-Referendum, to make going forward impossible? There's some very, very intelligent people out there who may well have recognised the difficulties asking it would cause - nowt like a Remain PM to really screw things up - but maybe thats just me being cynical.

There were 2 simple solutions; Leave, then negotiate. Or negotiate a framework trade agreement at the same time as the WA. It could have had a start date 24hrs after Leave. That would have satisfied those in the EU about the sanctity of Art 50. But once the EU realised how bloody wet May was about leaving they became emboldened. Thats changed with Johnson's hardline negotiating stance - they've bent over backward on this extension., even after Johnson's second letter.

As for Remain and hope to change the EU, my preferred option. I think Cameron's efforts to get something out of the EU prior to the vote showed how little the EU is willing to change. And since then, for all many people having said they think the EU got it wrong, the EU has had plenty of time to up the offer, and it hasn't happened.

"Carry on and develop the relationship..." apart from the UK's money, the UK has always been seen as a nuisance that has been tolerated because of the money. And for all the perception that the UK hasn't tried to be a part of the EU, the UK implements more of the EU rules than almost every other EU member state bar Germany. It laughable when reading on here about workers rights and environmental protection - they are EU laws and they are barely nodded at here in southern Spain but they've been fully implemented in the UK. The UK argues like hell when it feels its in the right but when the ref blows the whistle they behave.

This always confused me .
For one of the three main net contributors we had so little influence in the EU.
When Cameron asked for some changes he got two fingers.
That’s no way to treat one of your main contributors or are the EU so arrogant they think they can just do this.
Let’s be honest a small change would have given Cameron room to spin it at home and the referendum would not have happened.

You can’t change the EU from within this proves it imo.

 

[drdel]

I'm enjoying the JC claim we can't vote in winter because its dark; has he not realised in the 21stC UK there are street lights!, youngsters are often out at night, many businesses operate 24hrs, people go out for shows/cinema/meals in the evening.

There is also this relatively modern thing called the 'POST'. Voters can register and the Royal Mail will do all the work no matter what time of day it is!

 

[harpo_72]

Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Don’t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they won’t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I don’t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student.
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!

 

[SocketRocket]

This always confused me .
For one of the three main net contributors we had so little influence in the EU.
When Cameron asked for some changes he got two fingers.
That’s no way to treat one of your main contributors or are the EU so arrogant they think they can just do this.
Let’s be honest a small change would have given Cameron room to spin it at home and the referendum would not have happened.

You can’t change the EU from within this proves it imo.

The UK having a brake on FOM may have swung the vote for many.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I assure you I can make that comparison and I am. The referendum was no different to an election, the manifestos were the benefits stated for remain and leave, either accept the stated benefits of being in the EU plus Camerons negotiated new changes verses leaving and taking back control of laws, money, trade etc. What do you mean by an individual being held responsible, we're not a dictatorship, our government is held responsible for running the country (or as it currently is, Parliament).
I assume your ballot paper in elections has the same binary choice as mine, pick someone you want to represent you. You dont then get a plethora of options on how you would like to be represented. Have you ever seen an election thats genuine from either side and I never suggested it was.

Happy for you to show me the Leave or Remain Manifesto from the Referendum.
As for the individual being held responsible, you’ve quoted Cameron, did you mean the PM or the Leader of the then Government, or the Tory Party, because surely as Leader the individual takes responsibility.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Don’t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they won’t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I don’t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student.
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!

You have to apply for a postal vote. Nothing stopping them doing that. Makes sense for a student anyway as with any election there is a good chance that they will not be in the correct location for where they are registered.

I believe JC has also commented about older people not voting in winter because it gets dark earlier. Good job they are not at work then.

 

[SocketRocket]

Happy for you to show me the Leave or Remain Manifesto from the Referendum.
As for the individual being held responsible, you’ve quoted Cameron, did you mean the PM or the Leader of the then Government, or the Tory Party, because surely as Leader the individual takes responsibility.

Read it again. The choice given to us by the Government (of which Cameron was Prime Minister) was to accept remaining in his new reformed EU or Leaving it. I explained that no individual is ever responsible , you suggested that. Leave and remain created their projections on what the countries future would be like if our vote was one way or the other. Did you not get the Governments booklet through your letterbox explaining it for you.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Read it again. The choice given to us by the Government (of which Cameron was Prime Minister) was to accept remaining in his new reformed EU or Leaving it. I explained that no individual is ever responsible , you suggested that. Leave and remain created their projections on what the countries future would be like if our vote was one way or the other. Did you not get the Governments booklet through your letterbox explaining it for you.

You’re not getting it, whether you won’t or can’t see it, Leaders take ultimate responsibility, it comes with the job, remain nor leave had a leader or a joined up plan that produced a document (manifesto) showing what they intended to do if the result went their way.
For example. No one discussed a No Deal scenario except the remain supporters and that was dismissed as project fear.
Whether you like to hear it or not, some people believed things like the bus and the immigration posters etc.
The actual facts were hard to come by.

When we have the GE, do you think people will vote how they feel about Brexit or along Party lines?

 

[Fade and Die]

I'm enjoying the JC claim we can't vote in winter because its dark; has he not realised in the 21stC UK there are street lights!, youngsters are often out at night, many businesses operate 24hrs, people go out for shows/cinema/meals in the evening.

There is also this relatively modern thing called the 'POST'. Voters can register and the Royal Mail will do all the work no matter what time of day it is!

Don’t worry, Labour are fully aware of the opportunities postal voting offers...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324

 

[ColchesterFC]

Lib Dems and SNP saying that they will support an election on 9th December but not 12th December as they don't want the deal negotiated to go through parliament before an election. Is three days actually going to make any difference when it's clear that the numbers just aren't there to get the deal agreed anyway?

 

[Hobbit]

Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Don’t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they won’t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I don’t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student.
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!

You have to apply for a postal vote. Nothing stopping them doing that. Makes sense for a student anyway as with any election there is a good chance that they will not be in the correct location for where they are registered.

I believe JC has also commented about older people not voting in winter because it gets dark earlier. Good job they are not at work then.

Just how many students generally don't vote, and will it impact the numbers that much? There's just over 2.3m students in the UK, of which just under 500k are foreign students. What is the usual turnout amongst the student community? 58% turnout amongst the student fraternity. Just over 1,000,000 voted. Just over 800,000 didn't vote.

With only 32,000,000 voting out of a potential 47,000,000 I'm inclined to think there's bigger problems engaging with the general adult population rather than students.... unless of course someone believes that only chasing the young is the way to swing it... cunning, conniving, duplicitous? Nah, no one would do that... would they?

 

[SocketRocket]

You’re not getting it, whether you won’t or can’t see it, Leaders take ultimate responsibility, it comes with the job, remain nor leave had a leader or a joined up plan that produced a document (manifesto) showing what they intended to do if the result went their way.
For example. No one discussed a No Deal scenario except the remain supporters and that was dismissed as project fear.
Whether you like to hear it or not, some people believed things like the bus and the immigration posters etc.
The actual facts were hard to come by.

When we have the GE, do you think people will vote how they feel about Brexit or along Party lines?

You can talk for yourself. I was crystal clear on the process when I voted. I understood that if we decided to leave article 50 would be enacted, there would be two years negotiations between our government and the EU to attempt a leaving deal, if no deal was reached we either left without one or a mutually agreed extension could be allowed to continue discussions on a deal, there was no mention at the time of second referendums or stopping article 50.
When people vote they vote according to what criteria they wish to make their decision: conscience, predujice, loyalty, class, facts, hatred, its up to them and no different whether it be an election or referendum, its just a democratic process.