Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

Either of those sound like a better option than the deals.

Should have picked one of those two years ago, right after the referendum even and just got on with it...

I don’t think anyone is for this period of uncertainty, it’s killing the country.

The uncertainty wouldn't be there if MPs had accepted the referendum outcome.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

well that was an enlightening last couple of pages , it’s almost as if we are back three years 🙄

You can see the split just getting worse in the country- can anyone really see it being fixed regardless of what happens over the next couple of years

 

[SocketRocket]

well that was an enlightening last couple of pages , it’s almost as if we are back three years 🙄

You can see the split just getting worse in the country- can anyone really see it being fixed regardless of what happens over the next couple of years

Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.

 

[Fade and Die]

It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK can cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.

Possible candidate for most clueless post of the year. Tell me, do you live in the same bubble as the politicians?

 

[woody69]

Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.

Won't even be close to being over. We would still have to work out the new FTA.

The gravity model of international trade is established, remarkably robust, and common sensical: the closer you are to your trading partner, the more trade you are going to do, so we'll want that FTA

 

[woody69]

Possible candidate for most clueless post of the year. Tell me, do you live in the same bubble as the politicians?

Excellent retort sir.

Maybe you can clue me up?

 

[chrisd]

The Eu were, last week, using the phrase "free trade agreement" so I dont see it needs to ge a long drawn out affair. I cant see Germany making buying a BMW harder than it is now

 

[Fade and Die]

Excellent retort sir.

Maybe you can clue me up?

Would be a pointless exercise mate. Remainer fundamentalists cannot be converted. You just carry on feeling hard done by and pitying us poor plebs.

 

[robinthehood]

Excellent retort sir.

Maybe you can clue me up?

All you'll get is insults, and perhaps some rambling guff about Audi and bmw.

 

[Hobbit]

I’ve never understood this position, as I wouldn’t adopt this approach in any area of my life. I’d always review a decision in the light of additional information, and frequently do. Would you not do the same?

Another aspect of that discussion that bears revisiting is that referendums are built into the Swiss political structure. As with the various "propositions" that one sees on Californian ballots in every election, but in a more organised and less populist way, the Swiss incorporated an element of direct democracy - the referendum - into their constitution and made it clear how guidance provided by direct democracy should affect their representative democracy.

We have no such system, no guidance, no clarity and no public history or understanding of the function of the referendum in British politics. Thus, it's no wonder that the referendum result has ended up on a collision course with our representative democracy. Just blaming Parliament for being "undemocratic" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how our representative democracy is set up. Parliament has no clear guidelines for dealing with referendums. Specifically, they have no guidelines for dealing with an advisory referendum that the previous government promised would be treated as if it were binding. It was set up to be a mess, so it's no wonder it has turned out to be a mess.

just a quick point on the semi-autonomous Swiss Cantons. Around the time of the U.K. referendum the Swiss govt reached an agreement with the EU. They also had to receive approval from the Cantons. The Cantons knocked it back. It’s a regular occurrence for the Swiss govt to struggle to pass legislation because of a Canton, something akin to the DUP holding the Tories to ransom.

i wouldn’t use the Swiss as a good example of how to run a country.

 

[woody69]

Would be a pointless exercise mate. Remainer fundamentalists cannot be converted. You just carry on feeling hard done by and pitying us poor plebs.

Pointless exercise, or you just can't? Thanks for making me smile though. I did enjoy the irony.

 

[woody69]

just a quick point on the semi-autonomous Swiss Cantons. Around the time of the U.K. referendum the Swiss govt reached an agreement with the EU. They also had to receive approval from the Cantons. The Cantons knocked it back. It’s a regular occurrence for the Swiss govt to struggle to pass legislation because of a Canton, something akin to the DUP holding the Tories to ransom.

i wouldn’t use the Swiss as a good example of how to run a country.

They are a good example of how to run a referendum though.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.

You really think "its over" when we leave the EU - do you expect the split in the nation to suddenly just disappear

All those derogatory insults just forgotten , loss of jobs forgotten

Do you really think everything its all going to be sorted when we leave

 

[SocketRocket]

Won't even be close to being over. We would still have to work out the new FTA.

The gravity model of international trade is established, remarkably robust, and common sensical: the closer you are to your trading partner, the more trade you are going to do, so we'll want that FTA

Are you aware the UK does more trade outside the EU. So its important we have as many FTOs as we can.

 

[clubchamp98]

It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK can cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.

So I don’t understand but you do !!!
What a ::.

 

[SocketRocket]

You really think "its over" when we leave the EU - do you expect the split in the nation to suddenly just disappear

All those derogatory insults just forgotten , loss of jobs forgotten

Do you really think everything its all going to be sorted when we leave

How do you know there will not be more jobs if we leave and according to your thinking we will have the same or even worse split in the nation. Do you expect that to just disappear.

 

[Fade and Die]

Pointless exercise, or you just can't? Thanks for making me smile though. I did enjoy the irony.

Did you slowly shake your head as you smiled thinking “oh that poor fool?”😆

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How do you know there will not be more jobs and according to your thinking we will have the same or even worse split in the nation. Do you expect that to just disappear.

eh ?

Yes i think the nation will be further split when we leave the UK

The vote was right down the middle and in the last three years there has been nothing but insults and derogatory comments going both ways


I asked can anyone see the split be fixed - you said yes when we leave the EU - that satisfies half the country , the half wont go away - the split will be there

This whole complete mess of a referendum from day one has been the most divisive action that i have seen in my lifetime and its caused damage that wont be repaired in my lifetime.

And if when we do leave on whatever hash of a deal they make and it goes horribly wrong - i cant comprehend whats going to happen

 

[woody69]

Are you aware the UK does more trade outside the EU. So its important we have as many FTOs as we can.

Indeed. Something like 54% with non EU countries versus 46% with the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom

Lots to do, considering the UK will have to rearrange a large proportion of those trade deals which currently exist through our EU membership, it may be difficult to secure as good a deal based on the size of our market shrinking from 450 million people to about 65 million. Still, fingers crossed.

 

[clubchamp98]

eh ?

Yes i think the nation will be further split when we leave the UK

The vote was right down the middle and in the last three years there has been nothing but insults and derogatory comments going both ways


I asked can anyone see the split be fixed - you said yes when we leave the EU - that satisfies half the country , the half wont go away - the split will be there

This whole complete mess of a referendum from day one has been the most divisive action that i have seen in my lifetime and its caused damage that wont be repaired in my lifetime.

And if when we do leave on whatever hash of a deal they make and it goes horribly wrong - i cant comprehend whats going to happen

Can you imagine the split if they have another ref and remain win .
It will be magnified several times.