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Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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SocketRocket said:
How do you know she doesn't listen?
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Okay, take the second part of my sentence. She may listen but she does not alter her view, that is utterly evident. That approach is fine if you have a whopping majority but she doesn't. She has to be more flexible, take on other ideas but she has refused to. Now she is stuck up a blind alley after refusing to listen to anyone giving her options for directions.
 
SocketRocket said:
Grow up. You seem to think any criticism of Corbyn is a slight on yourself and then start the playground name calling.
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No I don’t, what part of I’m no fan of his and don’t want him as PM did you miss, I’ve called criticism of him in this matter as lazy and an easy cop out.
You on the other hand seem to see no fault with the government and TM recently.
 
pauldj42 said:
I’ve no doubt you guys have more experience on this than me, I still don’t get why everytime there’s an issue over the present Government and their performance we get Corbyn brought in to it and use him as the bogeyman.
I’m not a Corbyn supporter, I just see him as an easy excuse for people to hide or deflect from TM and her majority (whichever way it came about).

I dread JC becoming PM, but if he is elected then surely we’ll get the same people on here saying democracy has spoken and we should accept it.
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Pretty certain I said, in the post you quoted, May's behind the scenes antics were disgraceful. I don't like Sturgeon's politics at all, her old fashioned socialist spend and be damned, but I respect her as a politician. Whether it was Corbyn or Mother Theresa I would criticise them for their behaviour in leaving that meeting.

I didn't deflect. I included May in the criticism.

I won't deny I don't like Corbyn's politics at all but that's because it has no balance. The fact he met with Hamas etc isn't necessarily a bad thing. What lets him down, and I have said it elsewhere in the Corbyn thread, is he hasn't met with the Israeli's. He's been to IRA funerals but how many fallen soldier's funerals has he attended? I actually agree with his stance in meeting those groups but you have to have balance to have credibility otherwise you will be seen as a supporter of those causes. Add to that it isn't the odd cause here or there and his performance in parliament over many years, the guy is an extremist.
 
Mudball said:
the Yellow is where they petitioned from... The darker it gets, the more petitioners from that area. Basically, they has been a petiitioner from every part of the country incl England & Wales (which voted out).
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That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.
 
pauldj42 said:
No I don’t, what part of I’m no fan of his and don’t want him as PM did you miss, I’ve called criticism of him in this matter as lazy and an easy cop out.
You on the other hand seem to see no fault with the government and TM recently.
Click to expand...
I see lots of problems with the government and TM, I cant understand how you haven't noticed. Unlike you though I don't try to defend everything She/They do.
 
OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
 
ColchesterFC said:
That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.
Click to expand...

And when you spread the almost 1,000,000 signatories of the petition across each of the constituencies you get... not many out of 34,000,000 who originally voted.
 
GB72 said:
OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
Click to expand...

Stop it! You're being too sensible.
 
Hobbit said:
Pretty certain I said, in the post you quoted, May's behind the scenes antics were disgraceful. I don't like Sturgeon's politics at all, her old fashioned socialist spend and be damned, but I respect her as a politician. Whether it was Corbyn or Mother Theresa I would criticise them for their behaviour in leaving that meeting.

I didn't deflect. I included May in the criticism.

I won't deny I don't like Corbyn's politics at all but that's because it has no balance. The fact he met with Hamas etc isn't necessarily a bad thing. What lets him down, and I have said it elsewhere in the Corbyn thread, is he hasn't met with the Israeli's. He's been to IRA funerals but how many fallen soldier's funerals has he attended? I actually agree with his stance in meeting those groups but you have to have balance to have credibility otherwise you will be seen as a supporter of those causes. Add to that it isn't the odd cause here or there and his performance in parliament over many years, the guy is an extremist.
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And how does any of that help with Brexit, any conversation/posts etc concerning Corbyn his past is brought up.
His and others explanations of him walking out the meeting are immediately dismissed, why? Because they’re lies or because it’s him?
Her deal has been slated by every man and his dog and yet Corbyn is being labelled as the problem and questions today over his appearance in Brussels, what if he can make the breakthroughs she can’t, maybe as a socialist he has more in common with some of them, surely she should be encouraging everybody to try and sort this mess out.
 
Hobbit said:
And when you spread the almost 1,000,000 signatories of the petition across each of the constituencies you get... not many out of 34,000,000 who originally voted.
Click to expand...

This petition has gone viral and has attracted around 1 million responses. As Dan Walker pointed out on Twitter, there was a guy that wanted free chicken nuggets and got 3.5 million retweets. So far, 3.5 times the number of people that want Article 50 revoked wanted a guy they didn't know to get free chicken nuggets.
 
GB72 said:
OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
Click to expand...

The issue is that the Parties are themselves split. All the parties voted for a Referendum, they all supported Art 50 - more time = more fighting not less = more entrenchment = more uncertainty for business/people.
 
pauldj42 said:
And how does any of that help with Brexit, any conversation/posts etc concerning Corbyn his past is brought up.
His and others explanations of him walking out the meeting are immediately dismissed, why? Because they’re lies or because it’s him?
Her deal has been slated by every man and his dog and yet Corbyn is being labelled as the problem and questions today over his appearance in Brussels, what if he can make the breakthroughs she can’t, maybe as a socialist he has more in common with some of them, surely she should be encouraging everybody to try and sort this mess out.
Click to expand...

Thing is, any negotiated deal is going to be slated by both sides as it will involve concession. The Hard Brexit side will hate it as it has concessions to the EU, the Soft Brexit side will hate it because it has concessions to the Hard Brexit side and the remainers will hate it because it involves leaving the EU. Quite simply no deal was ever going to please anyone and that is the problem (aside from the fact that behind the facade in Parliament we are sitll having the lease/remain argument). This was an unwinable situation with too many entrenched views and too many hidden agendas. Starting to think that, even remain is not on the balot, a referendum that is legally binding is the only way forward. Parliament will not agree on this as it currently stands.
 
ColchesterFC said:
That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.
Click to expand...
There are some people in Scotland who support both Independence and No Deal Leave. :eek:
 
GB72 said:
Thing is, any negotiated deal is going to be slated by both sides as it will involve concession. The Hard Brexit side will hate it as it has concessions to the EU, the Soft Brexit side will hate it because it has concessions to the Hard Brexit side and the remainers will hate it because it involves leaving the EU. Quite simply no deal was ever going to please anyone and that is the problem (aside from the fact that behind the facade in Parliament we are sitll having the lease/remain argument). This was an unwinable situation with too many entrenched views and too many hidden agendas. Starting to think that, even remain is not on the balot, a referendum that is legally binding is the only way forward. Parliament will not agree on this as it currently stands.
Click to expand...
I don’t have any issue with that, but we find ourselves in this position because of TM’s negotiating stance, she should of been more open to cross party or internal party politics.
I know it’s simplistic, but if she’d of sorted her own party out she may of got the support to get the deal done.
 
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