Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[bluewolf]

But she’s extremely biased. Do you not consider that before accepting it as gospel?

Everyone who doesn't swallow your line is dismissed as biased. Do you not consider that?

She represents British Business. She wouldn't last very long if she allowed personal bias to colour her work, would she.

An opinion on her from that rabid left wing rag The Independent.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ce-philip-hammond-change-in-a8563016.html?amp

 

[bluewolf]

But she’s extremely biased. Do you not consider that before accepting it as gospel?

Also, accepting what as gospel? I pointed out that she was scathing about a No Deal Brexit. What did I accept as gospel?
Maybe I should only highlight the considered musings of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Farage et al.

 

[bluewolf]

So your telling us a spokeswomen for a pro EU organisation that receives EU funding and even said we should join the Euro is scathing about Britain leaving the EU....?

That’s a game changer! 😂

Only just noticed this classic. That "Pro EU organisation" represents British Business. You know. That group that you believe will benefit from a No Deal Brexit. So you seriously believe that the organisation that represents Business is actively supporting measures that would hurt them? 😂😂😢

 

[Fade and Die]

Everyone who doesn't swallow your line is dismissed as biased. Do you not consider that?

She represents British Business. She wouldn't last very long if she allowed personal bias to colour her work, would she.

An opinion on her from that rabid left wing rag The Independent.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/cbi-carolyn-fairbairn-brexit-conservatives-conservative-party-conference-philip-hammond-change-in-a8563016.html?amp

I don’t know if she is “personally biased” but she represents an organisation that is extremely pro EU.

 

[bluewolf]

I don’t know if she is “personally biased” but she represents an organisation that is extremely pro EU.

And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that?

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?

 

[SocketRocket]

So, let me get this right, evidence that we would be a 2nd class player on the world stage is presented to you. And your rebuttal is that "well that's just an opinion, and it won't affect us till after we leave anyway!"
Of course it won't affect us till after we leave. It'll be too late to address it by then as well.

Ok, are you happy to sign deals that are demonstrably worse than ones we currently benefit from?

Worth noting that reports are emerging that South Korea now want to re-open and renegotiate trade terms with the UK.

What evidence. You give a link to an editorial where someone is giving an opinion and say it's evidence!

Please stop putting words in my mouth! My point on us leaving wasn't that it wont affect us until then but that we cannot make any agreements until we leave.

 

[Fade and Die]

And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that?

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?

I think you are creating a false dichotomy with your questions.

Yes the CBI lobby group represents business but not all business has the same view.

Heres a few counter views about the CBI that you will probably not read....

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...t-about-every-major-issue-for-many-years.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....015/nov/06/cbi-business-opinion-eu-referendum

Anyway I’m off to walk the dog (not a euphemism!) I’ll read your reply’s in a couple of hours. 👍

 

[bluewolf]

I think you are creating a false dichotomy with your questions.

Yes the CBI lobby group represents business but not all business has the same view.

Heres a few counter views about the CBI that you will probably not read....

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...t-about-every-major-issue-for-many-years.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....015/nov/06/cbi-business-opinion-eu-referendum

Anyway I’m off to walk the dog (not a euphemism!) I’ll read your reply’s in a couple of hours. 👍

Sorry, but you've linked to the Conservative home page and a 4 yr old piece on the ex DG of the CBI. And I've read them both. If you have anything newer and more neutral. It's the reason I've linked to Centre and Right leaning media organisations.
And I'm out with the dogs now. Have a nice walk.

 

[bluewolf]

What evidence. You give a link to an editorial where someone is giving an opinion and say it's evidence!

Please stop putting words in my mouth! My point on us leaving wasn't that it wont affect us until then but that we cannot make any agreements until we leave.

I suspect that you wouldn't accept it unless Shinzo Abe rang you personally. Never mind. It was worth a try.

 

[MegaSteve]

And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that?

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?

Is this the same 'British business' that demanded of Cameron he reigned in 'workers rights' afforded by our membership of the EU? Perhaps if they'd allowed some of the supposed/alleged benefits tumble down the vote might have gone the other way...

 

[SocketRocket]

I suspect that you wouldn't accept it unless Shinzo Abe rang you personally. Never mind. It was worth a try.

Problem with these internet links is you can always find one to support your preferred stance on anything. Here's one (Not new) from Channel 4 showing how the CBI have used incorrect data in their anti Brexit case.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-questionable-numbers-eu-debate

 

[bluewolf]

Is this the same 'British business' that demanded of Cameron he reigned in 'workers rights' afforded by our membership of the EU? Perhaps if they'd allowed some of the supposed/alleged benefits tumble down the vote might have gone the other way...

Ok, I'm not sure I follow your logic here..(most likely my fault). It appears that you're saying that the electorate decided to punish Cameron and Big Business by voting to leave the organisation that "afforded workers rights" and handing over control of workers rights to the Government of the day (likely to be the Tories for quite a while now). The Government that contains MP's like Dominic Raab, who is most definitely not a fan of workers rights

 

[bluewolf]

Problem with these internet links is you can always find one to support your preferred stance on anything. Here's one (Not new) from Channel 4 showing how the CBI have used incorrect data in their anti Brexit case.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-questionable-numbers-eu-debate

Again, it's 4 years old and refers to statements released before the referendum (and I'm not sure you want to get into that discussion again)..
Trust me, I'm no fan of the practices of Big Business, or the CBI.. However, I do realise that economic growth is required in the current economic model. Anything that threatens that growth can only be a negative..

Also, you didn't answer my question earlier..

Purely hypothetically - Would you accept Trade deals that were demonstrably worse that the ones we currently benefit from?

 

[SocketRocket]

Again, it's 4 years old and refers to statements released before the referendum (and I'm not sure you want to get into that discussion again)..
Trust me, I'm no fan of the practices of Big Business, or the CBI.. However, I do realise that economic growth is required in the current economic model. Anything that threatens that growth can only be a negative..

Also, you didn't answer my question earlier..

Purely hypothetically - Would you accept Trade deals that were demonstrably worse that the ones we currently benefit from?

I was merely pointing out with the link that if you trawl around enough you will find something that substantiates your view whatever it is.

Re your question:
Its a bit of a loaded question where the answer has to be Yes and No! It's not as simple as Yes we would or No we wont as it depends on the Trade Deal. If the trade deal was very poor for us we may want to say No and use WTO instead, if its good or reasonable we would probably say Yes. As it's down to negotiation the ones we have now through the EU would be irrelevant anyway as we would no longer be members. The way to view this is we would be out of the EU so looking back on what was would be a pointless exercise, that is unless you would want to perpetually dwell in the land of 'What Was'

 

[bluewolf]

I was merely pointing out with the link that if you trawl around enough you will find something that substantiates your view whatever it is.

Re your question:
Its a bit of a loaded question where the answer has to be Yes and No! It's not as simple as Yes we would or No we wont as it depends on the Trade Deal. If the trade deal was very poor for us we may want to say No and use WTO instead, if its good or reasonable we would probably say Yes. As it's down to negotiation the ones we have now through the EU would be irrelevant anyway as we would no longer be members. The way to view this is we would be out of the EU so looking back on what was would be a pointless exercise, that is unless you would want to perpetually dwell in the land of 'What Was'

I'm sorry Brian, but that's just pure political avoidance... You should consider standing as an candidate with that answer..

If we were to negotiate a deal with say, Japan.. Would you be happy if the deal was worse than the one that's just been signed with the EU?
Even if it was better than WTO terms (and what deal wouldn't be)

 

[Fade and Die]

Sorry, but you've linked to the Conservative home page and a 4 yr old piece on the ex DG of the CBI. And I've read them both. If you have anything newer and more neutral. It's the reason I've linked to Centre and Right leaning media organisations.
And I'm out with the dogs now. Have a nice walk.

So ignoring the 4 year old item (which is still relevant btw) you think the other organisation is biased?... I think it is too but unlike you with your CBI stance I can acknowledge that.

 

[bluewolf]

So ignoring the 4 year old item (which is still relevant btw) you think the other organisation is biased?... I think it is too but unlike you with your CBI stance I can acknowledge that.

How can the CBI one be biased? She thinks that a No Deal Brexit will be a disaster for British Business. She represents British Business. She's either doing that or is giving her own personal opinion (in which case she'd have been replaced by now).
It appears that anything that doubts the positive effects of a No Deal Brexit is dismissed as biased nonsense.. Even when it's the very organisations that you think will benefit the most.. You're so entrenched in your views that nothing short of a last minute Farage about turn would convince you otherwise..

So, in order to provide balance, can you link to a Centre or Left leaning organisation that is actively promoting a No Deal Brexit...

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm sorry Brian, but that's just pure political avoidance... You should consider standing as an candidate with that answer..

If we were to negotiate a deal with say, Japan.. Would you be happy if the deal was worse than the one that's just been signed with the EU?
Even if it was better than WTO terms (and what deal wouldn't be)

I would reply to the Right Honorable Gentleman:

The point is whether the deal is acceptable to the UK, what the EU has is not particularly relevant to me. One would of course take into account what had been previously agreed with other parties but ultimately it would not be the deciding factor.

 

[bluewolf]

I would reply to the Right Honorable Gentleman:

The point is whether the deal is acceptable to the UK, what the EU has is not particularly relevant to me. One would of course take into account what had been previously agreed with other parties but ultimately it would not be the deciding factor.

No, the point of the question is whether it would be acceptable to YOU.. And your reluctance to actually answer the question speaks volumes..

And, with respect, we're not comparing it with what the EU have.. We're comparing it with what we currently have..

 

[Fade and Die]

How can the CBI one be biased? She thinks that a No Deal Brexit will be a disaster for British Business. She represents British Business. She's either doing that or is giving her own personal opinion (in which case she'd have been replaced by now).
It appears that anything that doubts the positive effects of a No Deal Brexit is dismissed as biased nonsense.. Even when it's the very organisations that you think will benefit the most.. You're so entrenched in your views that nothing short of a last minute Farage about turn would convince you otherwise..

So, in order to provide balance, can you link to a Centre or Left leaning organisation that is actively promoting a No Deal Brexit...

Ive explained it to you, unfortunately I can’t understand it for you.
You carry on postulating loaded questions though, I’m out. 👍