Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Doon frae Troon]

Gotta love the SNP....they've lost the two Refererdums this century, now they are trying for 3-0

Don't worry we don't give up easily.

Out of interest, did you actually listen to what Joanna said, if so, do you disagree with any of it.

 

[Fade and Die]

Not quite as simple as that I am afraid.
Polls have shown that there is a great big mucking fuddle when you start to break down yes/no, remain/leave conundrums.

Support for Independence from Labour and Tory individuals is not uncommon.
Not all independence supporters were in favour of staying the EU

Which was really the point i was trying to make... Brexit is a cross party problem.

 

[bluewolf]

I dont have to be constructive i am only one voice not a politician or figurehead, whose opinion will not change the current climate , i just find it comical that i seem to have struck a nerve with you , i did not specifically aim at you so why point at me for my comment ?
I am not part of the hierarchy of an organisation that has been challenged and whose comments make international press ,so my view is just that , mine . You can like it or lump it for me, i just wish we could get this over and done with

LOL, you quoted my post! So it was aimed specifically at me. And you haven't touched a nerve at all, but if you aim a comment at me, I'm likely to respond.

whether you agree with his comment or not, he has every right to make it. To decide that he is somehow "not very constructive" whilst ignoring every other comment by Uk based commentators appears to be a touch one sided. If we were to compile all the comments made by protagonists on both sides and critique them all then that would be better. But that isn't happening.. Horrible statements by people like Mark Francois and Daniel Kawazinski appear to go unnoticed by most on here..

Oh, and I'm desperate for it to be over as well. This is a dark time for Britain and I suspect that history will not be kind to us.. Any of us..

(sorry if this is a little disjointed. I'm currently attempting to work out a Shipping itinerary for a product currently in production, that is due to leave in March, pass through 2 European Ports before finally heading to the USA in April. My head is in bits!!! )

 

[Fade and Die]

LOL, you quoted my post! So it was aimed specifically at me. And you haven't touched a nerve at all, but if you aim a comment at me, I'm likely to respond.

whether you agree with his comment or not, he has every right to make it. To decide that he is somehow "not very constructive" whilst ignoring every other comment by Uk based commentators appears to be a touch one sided. If we were to compile all the comments made by protagonists on both sides and critique them all then that would be better. But that isn't happening.. Horrible statements by people like Mark Francois and Daniel Kawazinski appear to go unnoticed by most on here..

Oh, and I'm desperate for it to be over as well. This is a dark time for Britain and I suspect that history will not be kind to us.. Any of us..

(sorry if this is a little disjointed. I'm currently attempting to work out a Shipping itinerary for a product currently in production, that is due to leave in March, pass through 2 European Ports before finally heading to the USA in April. My head is in bits!!! )

Don't use myHermes ffs!

 

[SocketRocket]

I think we're clutching at straws when we're analysing the comment in that sort of detail.. FWIW, I agree with him on this comment. I think that these people who have been hugely vocal about leaving the EU, then have just stood on the sidelines firing petty comments at May and the EU should be ashamed of themselves.. I don't like May, but at least she appears to be attempting to do something. I have zero respect for the likes of Johnson et al, who have offered nothing but bland diatribes about how we'll survive because of the jolly old WW2 spirit..

And if you want to talk about constructive then where were you when MP's were making ugly, petty comments about the Germans, about specific EU politicians, about leading voices in the Remain camp? Or is it just those pesky foreigners who aren't allowed to comment?

What on earth do you expect MPs not in government to do, they are not sat at the negotiating table and have little input to what is discussed. What plan should they have exactly. If they propose anything it's shot down in flames. May has been the only one in a position to do anything.

Tusk is being stupid by posting insults on twitter, he's supposed to be a leader on the world stage but is acting like Trump. I guess anyone with the audacity to want to leave the almighty EU must be deserving a place in the firey pit with the devil for a partner.

 

[User62651]

Which was really the point i was trying to make... Brexit is a cross party problem.

UKIP was Brexit in a nutshell, it was their dream. They had a 12.8% vote share in 2015 GE up from 3.1% in 2010 GE, massive growth which worried Tories more than Labour and was propelled by something - perhaps because that period coincided with hard Tory austerity policy so people were angry and wanted someone to blame, a situation exploited by UKIP helped by a charismatic leader in Farage blaming EU membership for UKs ills. Ills that ironically have only become worse since voting to leave.
Brexit's only a problem because Tories decided to make the problem by having a referendum on EU membership to stop that pattern of leaking votes to UKIP, Camerons gamble that went wrong. Labour also lost votes to UKIP in 2015 but they under Milliband hadn't proposed an EU referendum. In that regard Brexit is owned by Conservatives, they created it and they still have to sort it out.
Saying it is a cross party problem isn't quite right imo, is portrayed that way now by some Leavers as a means to further their agenda. Good example being that somehow voting Labour in 2017 GE was a vote for Brexit. Lib dems were still poison because of their coalition with Tories so those Labour voters could realistically only vote Labour again. Corbyn also mobilised the young vote too in 2017 and we know from polling the young are roughly 7 to 1 in favour of remain.

 

[SocketRocket]

UKIP was Brexit in a nutshell, it was their dream. They had a 12.8% vote share in 2015 GE up from 3.1% in 2010 GE, massive growth which worried Tories more than Labour and was propelled by something - perhaps because that period coincided with hard Tory austerity policy so people were angry and wanted someone to blame, a situation exploited by UKIP helped by a charismatic leader in Farage blaming EU membership for UKs ills. Ills that ironically have only become worse since voting to leave.
Brexit's only a problem because Tories decided to make the problem by having a referendum on EU membership to stop that pattern of leaking votes to UKIP, Camerons gamble that went wrong. Labour also lost votes to UKIP in 2015 but they under Milliband hadn't proposed an EU referendum. In that regard Brexit is owned by Conservatives, they created it and they still have to sort it out.
Saying it is a cross party problem isn't quite right imo, is portrayed that way now by some Leavers as a means to further their agenda. Good example being that somehow voting Labour in 2017 GE was a vote for Brexit. Lib dems were still poison because of their coalition with Tories so those Labour voters could realistically only vote Labour again. Corbyn also mobilised the young vote too in 2017 and we know from polling the young are roughly 7 to 1 in favour of remain.

What exactly are these ills the UK had that have become worse since voting to leave?

 

[bluewolf]

What on earth do you expect MPs not in government to do, they are not sat at the negotiating table and have little input to what is discussed. What plan should they have exactly. If they propose anything it's shot down in flames. May has been the only one in a position to do anything.

Tusk is being stupid by posting insults on twitter, he's supposed to be a leader on the world stage but is acting like Trump. I guess anyone with the audacity to want to leave the almighty EU must be deserving a place in the firey pit with the devil for a partner.

And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...

 

[SocketRocket]

And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...

I don't do ranting >

 

[Fade and Die]

And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...

Even so bit strong ain't it? Hardly the words of a diplomat.

 

[Sweep]

The comments by Tusk are IMO utterly reprehensible and deliberately designed to be provocative. Using phrases referring to a special place in hell are very emotive and are not remotely linked to the truth. This separates his comments from genuine criticism and in turn that shows them up to be a insult and a deliberate one at that. Quite why he chose these particular words at this particular time is beyond me. To be honest, as they have been given the clear opportunity to distance themselves from Tusk’s comments at the press conference, I am just as shocked that Veradkar and Juncker failed to do so.
In my view this is just another example of why we should get out and get out now. I simply don’t want us to be involved with these amateurs and I never have. IMO Juncker, Tusk and cronies are the best recruitment force for the leave campaign.
You can’t negotiate with idiots and these people are nothing if not idiots. How else can you explain such a ridiculous and purposeful comment like this? - and it was purposeful. Varadkar was caught on a mic telling Tusk the UK press would give him a hard time over it and Tusk just laughed.
As I say, you can’t negotiate with idiots so let’s just leave now. If no deal means not having to deal with these clowns then bring it on!

 

[Sweep]

It does beggar belief that at the same press conferences where Veradkar is playing hardball with his big EU mates behind him, he is also going to great lengths to explain how the EU will assist Ireland in the event of a no deal. So Ireland becomes a beggar yet again at the EU table. And the Irish leader is happy with that.

 

[bluewolf]

Even so bit strong ain't it? Hardly the words of a diplomat.

And as I said. He's not the only one doing it. There are plenty on either side of the negotiations that deserve to be reprimanded. Yet I'm only seeing one side being vilified. It's just a bit childish, isn't it. Trying to make it all about the big bad bogeyman on the other side of the table.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The art of diplomacy certainly seems to be lacking at the moment.

 

[bluewolf]

The art of diplomacy certainly seems to be lacking at the moment.

From both sides. 👍

 

[Sweep]

And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...

And yet no mention of the EU who have frustrated negotiations for 2.5 years. Left it to the UK to make all suggestions and then knocked them back and now refuse to negotiate even though they know our govt is not in a position to sign the WA as it stands.
And brexiteers did not slunk off into the background. They were sidelined.
Maybe the problems started the day after the referendum when someone said “ now we will go to Brussels to negotiate”. Maybe we should have just left and let the EU do the running. Maybe that’s what we should do now. Maybe we will end up doing that anyway. At least it would have saved us 2.5 years of nonsense.

 

[Sweep]

From both sides. 👍

I don’t remember the UK govt throwing around insults.

 

[Sweep]

And as I said. He's not the only one doing it. There are plenty on either side of the negotiations that deserve to be reprimanded. Yet I'm only seeing one side being vilified. It's just a bit childish, isn't it. Trying to make it all about the big bad bogeyman on the other side of the table.

What is childish is for someone in Tusk’s position to be making insulting comments that bear no resemblance to reality at a time like this.
Who needs to be reprimanded on the UK side of the negotiations? Or is it more “UK bad, EU good”?
If you are looking at this particular incident with a balanced view, I can’t really see how you can defend it. But I admire your efforts.

 

[drdel]

That's not what he said..
He wondered "what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely"

So, not Brexit supporters.. just those in power who pushed for it without any idea of how to actually do it..

It doesn't help if you don't put the comment in its proper context, does it?

Using the word "hell" in the context of diplomatic briefing was guaranteed to raise emotions as he well knew. He rapidly went on social media to further maximise his effect and stroke his ego.

IMO for a person in his position and while the EU and UK are at a sensitive stage to use such language ix just arrogant and silly.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

From both sides. 👍

I don't know that the UK negotiators or senior UK people are. The muppets are, Boris, the dipstick MP who ripped up a letter on camera the other week who was plain embarrassing etc, but they are not in positions of power and are best ignored. Tusk coming out with this is a little like Jeremy Hunt making an inflammatory statement and to be fair I don't think he is. The people at the top table on both sides need to be calm and constructive, not behaving like Trump or Farage. Curse behind closed doors like all diplomats will but in the open don't play to the audience. They need to be better than that. All Tusk has done is inflame the Brexiteers and none of us win from that.