Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

Sorry - how can it not be clearer. The UK knew exactly where the EU would be very, very unlikely to move from in respect of the four freedoms. This we knew at the outset. If May had not - by choice- set out her Red Lines after Art50 was triggered there would have been significant scope for the EU and the UK reaching a deal.

Its a negotiation, for the millionth time!!!

You don't set out your acceptable position at the outset. The UK set their red lines and the EU set out theirs. Since then, there's been a lot of posturing. They will meet somewhere in-between.

There is still scope for negotiating.

 

[MegaSteve]

I think she was just winding up the Tory leadership with their constant Plan B jibes in 2014

Oki dokey… Makes sense then...


So, in forum acceptable language...
What's your honest feelings on Teflon Tone and his input into the debate...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.

Good post. Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU. It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a particular way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long.

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs. Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.

And for what? Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.

 

[Hobbit]

Good post. Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU. It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a particular way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long.

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs. Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.

And for what? Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.

You don't know whether or not those rights and protections will be improved once the UK has left the EU. All you see, and post, is the negatives.

And if really think that the UK's current rights and protections are EU rights and protections you are sadly mistaken. I get better warranties, and rights and protections here in Spain than you get in the UK. The UK consumer rights are the UK's, not the EU's.

I get a 2 year warranty on everything here. You get 12 months, unless a particular manufacturer has enhanced their warranty in a bid to get more sales.

 

[SocketRocket]

Good post. Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU. It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a particular way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long.

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs. Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.

And for what? Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.

Oh Dear! So we are back to leave voters not understanding what they were voting for. That really is a lazy argument and very hackneyed now.

 

[ColchesterFC]

If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one..

Does that not equally apply to Brexit though? If the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a deal with the UK then we just say "Stuff it, we'll get our cars from Japan/Korea/elsewhere and our wine from South America/South Africa/elsewhere". If we go to WTO rules for trade with the EU and adopt a free trade deal with non EU countries then that will reduce our reliance on trade with the EU and build trade with the rest of the world. Not sure EU manufacturers would be tremendously happy with Barnier if that happened.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Oki dokey… Makes sense then...


So, in forum acceptable language...
What's your honest feelings on Teflon Tone and his input into the debate...

I always liked Blair until he got his head turned by Bush, money and his ego went in the same direction as Thatcher.
He seems like the only guy who could save the UK in it's present state.

I see the nice half of the Tory party rank and file are finally starting to make their feelings known.

 

[MegaSteve]

I always liked Blair until he got his head turned by Bush, money and his ego went in the same direction as Thatcher.
He seems like the only guy who could save the UK in it's present state.

Tone carried on from PM Major... Delivering what he wanted rather than what the electorate voted for...

I see the nice half of the Tory party rank and file are finally starting to make their feelings known.

Nice and Tory in the same sentence
Rather bold from someone north of the wall...

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Does that not equally apply to Brexit though? If the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a deal with the UK then we just say "Stuff it, we'll get our cars from Japan/Korea/elsewhere and our wine from South America/South Africa/elsewhere". If we go to WTO rules for trade with the EU and adopt a free trade deal with non EU countries then that will reduce our reliance on trade with the EU and build trade with the rest of the world. Not sure EU manufacturers would be tremendously happy with Barnier if that happened.

Great, so I'm going to have to give up Claret and BMWs - this is getting ridiculous now:angry:

 

[User62651]

Nice and Tory in the same sentence
Rather bold from someone north of the wall...

Now now, we do have 13 Tory MPs these days without whom Treeza would not be PM.....and RuthD of course, politics and electorate aren't that one sided up here - last GE vote share was 28.6% tory v 36.9% SNP v 27.1% Labour. Close to 30% Tory support is relatively high. First past the post distorts things wrt MP numbers as the non SNP vote gets split.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You don't know whether or not those rights and protections will be improved once the UK has left the EU. All you see, and post, is the negatives.

And if really think that the UK's current rights and protections are EU rights and protections you are sadly mistaken. I get better warranties, and rights and protections here in Spain than you get in the UK. The UK consumer rights are the UK's, not the EU's.

I get a 2 year warranty on everything here. You get 12 months, unless a particular manufacturer has enhanced their warranty in a bid to get more sales.

I said quite clearly that we might well be told these rights and protections would be guaranteed - but everything is up in the air - all is put at risk - especially if we end up with No Deal - for what...? I suggest that the actual benefit to Mr Joe Public's daily life as a result of leaving will be minimal compared with the negatives. Of course I don't know that - but we have a lot established that is of benefit to each of us as individuals and, I'd say - little that is negative that leaving will sort.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Oh Dear! So we are back to leave voters not understanding what they were voting for. That really is a lazy argument and very hackneyed now.

...and I might as well just say that your response is lazy and hackneyed - and we go back to promises of a land of milk and honey enabled by £350m a week becoming available to spend on whatever we want - evern the NHS (pity that's going to require tax rises to fund...)

 

[Hobbit]

I said quite clearly that we might well be told these rights and protections would be guaranteed - but everything is up in the air - all is put at risk - especially if we end up with No Deal - for what...? I suggest that the actual benefit to Mr Joe Public's daily life as a result of leaving will be minimal compared with the negatives. Of course I don't know that - but we have a lot established that is of benefit to each of us as individuals and, I'd say - little that is negative that leaving will sort.

I'm open minded about what might happen, you're not. I also have faith in the electorate holding the government to account, and I'm sure that the government are well aware that if they get it wrong they will feel it in the ballot box. I'm also aware that there's also many things that aren't good with the EU, just as there are with the UK.

The UK has the chance to adopt best practice from the EU, which I'm sure they will, and take advantage of the freedoms that being outside the EU will bring.

There will be a blip, without a doubt, but not long after that the UK will be in a better place. Selfishly, living in Spain, I want to Remain but that doesn't mean I can't see the upside of leaving. Economically, the EU is stagnating and that means the countries in the EU are stagnating. The big growth areas are outside of the EU, and being afforded more freedoms to chase those opportunities will benefit the UK. It will be hard work but it is very achievable.

 

[SocketRocket]

...and I might as well just say that your response is lazy and hackneyed - and we go back to promises of a land of milk and honey enabled by £350m a week becoming available to spend on whatever we want - evern the NHS (pity that's going to require tax rises to fund...)

Oh Dear! Yawn....

 

[drdel]

I'm open minded about what might happen, you're not. I also have faith in the electorate holding the government to account, and I'm sure that the government are well aware that if they get it wrong they will feel it in the ballot box. I'm also aware that there's also many things that aren't good with the EU, just as there are with the UK.

The UK has the chance to adopt best practice from the EU, which I'm sure they will, and take advantage of the freedoms that being outside the EU will bring.

There will be a blip, without a doubt, but not long after that the UK will be in a better place. Selfishly, living in Spain, I want to Remain but that doesn't mean I can't see the upside of leaving. Economically, the EU is stagnating and that means the countries in the EU are stagnating. The big growth areas are outside of the EU, and being afforded more freedoms to chase those opportunities will benefit the UK. It will be hard work but it is very achievable.

Yup.

Anyone who swallows the rhetoric of doom and gloom would do well to take a gander at the ONS data on the UK's export growth. Whatever sections of the press and others determined to talk down the UK say we are still a major world player; which as a small island of 60odd million is pretty good.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Oh Dear! Yawn....

Yes - just dismiss it - go on - it's just what Leavers do.

BTW - what I posted earlier were my feelings about how the EU impacted - or didn't - my life. I did not for one second suggest that others not sharing my views were misinformed or did not understand - it was your choice make that accusation of leave voters - I did not make it.

 

[SocketRocket]

Good post. Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU. It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a particular way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long.

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs. Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.

And for what? Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.

Yes - just dismiss it - go on - it's just what Leavers do.

BTW - what I posted earlier were my feelings about how the EU impacted - or didn't - my life. I did not for one second suggest that others not sharing my views were misinformed or did not understand - it was your choice make that accusation of leave voters - I did not make it.

Didn't you?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Didn't you?

No I didn't.

My post was to simply reflect my feelings about the EU and how it impacted my life - it generally made things easier and better without noticeable negative impacts - that post being made off the back of @maxfli65s post.

I feel that it is unreasonable to take my views about how I felt, flip that on it's head and interpret it as criticism that others have been mistaken in not feeling the same. And that is what you did.

My comment on Johnson was that he did a good selling job of views previously mostly held by likes of Cash and Bone. I was admitting that one big mistake made by the Remain campaign was to miss that someone like Johnson could make a huge impact on a constituency that was sitting waiting and open to his sell. Huge Remain complacency thinking that the views of Bone and Cash just couldn't gain much wider support.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Guy who has negotiated billions of dollars of trade deals and engaged by the Hong Kong government to negotiate trade deals has a take on Article 50 - that Out means Out and what that then means. I suppose he doesn't know a trade deal from the back end of a bus...but he knows more about trade deals than I do - so I listened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOQd0BExrAo

 

[SocketRocket]

Guy who has negotiated billions of dollars of trade deals and engaged by the Hong Kong government to negotiate trade deals has a take on Article 50 - that Out means Out and what that then means. I suppose he doesn't know a trade deal from the back end of a bus...but he knows more about trade deals than I do - so I listened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOQd0BExrAo

So this guy professes to know more than anyone else in the country about leaving the EU! In that case why didn't he read section two of the article where it states clearly that the leaving country and the EU will negotiate the relationship for the withdraw and a framework for it's future relationship.