Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Liverpoolphil said:
No Doon and no interest in watching it - if someone wants to see and find bias they always will. Take your posts for example - everyone knows that 99.9% of your posts have a clear anti English anti BBC anti government bias - we all know it and we all know you are incapable of posting from a neutral point of view and it’s always either Pro Scottish or anti English or both. It’s the same with SILH always posting anti Brexit or SR posting pro Brexit - it’s just floods the thread and the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out - so a thread that can be informative to people becomes a slagging match between the same that ruined the last thread - thankfully I can get my facts , opinions from other sources and I can make me own mind up - I don’t care if you think the BBC is Bias - it’s a good service imo
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I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion. I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest. I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view. The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there! I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said. You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions. Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first? I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.
 
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SocketRocket said:
Liverpoolphil said:
No Doon and no interest in watching it - if someone wants to see and find bias they always will. Take your posts for example - everyone knows that 99.9% of your posts have a clear anti English anti BBC anti government bias - we all know it and we all know you are incapable of posting from a neutral point of view and it’s always either Pro Scottish or anti English or both. It’s the same with SILH always posting anti Brexit or SR posting pro Brexit - it’s just floods the thread and the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out - so a thread that can be informative to people becomes a slagging match between the same that ruined the last thread - thankfully I can get my facts , opinions from other sources and I can make me own mind up - I don’t care if you think the BBC is Bias - it’s a good service imo
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I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion. I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest. I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view. The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there! I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said. You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions. Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first? I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.
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I'm inclined to agree with the vast majority of SR's reply!

Everyone's opinion is exactly that - an opinion! The weighting they give anything that may help/make them form their opinion is their own choice!

As long as the 'discussion' doesn't descend into personal attacks, then reasonable differences of opinion are, imo, quite healthy!

Unfortunately, the thread is occasionally, but too often, 'hi-jacked' for a completely unrelated, but still political, purpose! That hi-jacking needs to stop/be stopped!
 
SocketRocket said:
I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion. I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest. I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view. The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there! I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said. You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions. Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first? I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.
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I'm with you on this. As far as I'm aware we have free speech within the bounds of libel and slander.

Anyone who posts on a Forum needs to have as thick-a-skin as they expect of their fellow posters.
 
So ........ we've finally come to the conclusion that anyone posting contrary views to our own are only expressing their own opinions and therefore we can totally ignore them.

Thank goodness 😁
 
chrisd said:
So ........ we've finally come to the conclusion that anyone posting contrary views to our own are only expressing their own opinions and therefore we can totally ignore them.

Thank goodness 
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As long as they don't express their opinion or someone else's opinion as fact.
 
Hobbit said:
And that's from 2011. Dredging it up a bit Hugh. If you go back far enough you'll find many supporters of the Common Market ave long since changed their mind, courtesy of a lack of a vote on the Maastricht Treaty.
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Yes - not yesterday. But he changed his mind. His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed. But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales). If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase? Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase.

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Yes - not yesterday. But he changed his mind. His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed. But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales). If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase? Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase.

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.
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Not disputing that one bit. Do you expect the bulk of the Tory party to change their mind? Even then that’s too simplistic. Do you expect MP”s from predominantly Leave constituencies to risk their seats by going against their local constituents?
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Yes - not yesterday. But he changed his mind. His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed. But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales). If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase? Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase.

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.
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I'd suggest this is not the bets analogy.

Suppose you bought a franchise business but then the rest of the franchisees decided to become a corporate group and the original franchise creator wanted ever higher 'central' controls and contributions.

Would you still stick with it even though it was loosing you money and a long way from the business model you signed up to.
 
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Hobbit said:
Not disputing that one bit. Do you expect the bulk of the Tory party to change their mind? Even then that’s too simplistic. Do you expect MP”s from predominantly Leave constituencies to risk their seats by going against their local constituents?
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Well maybe our MPs should each and every one do a 'Town Hall' in their constituency as Senators and Congressmen in the States do during recesses. An MP should explain to their constituents the rationale for their views on No Deal and on whether or not a second referendum should be considered.

And they should stand by their views - and if they get dumped by their electorate then so be it.
 
drdel said:
I'd suggest this is not the bets analogy.

Suppose you bought a franchise business but then the rest of the franchisees decided to become a corporate group and the original franchise creator wanted ever higher 'central' controls and contributions.

Would you still stick with it even though it was loosing you money and a long way from the business model you signed up to.
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You can change your mind and leave if that is what you want to do. But if in the process of leaving you discover that there might not be anything better for you out there you might change your mind and stick with it. I have no idea how often your analogy actually happens - but I suggest that there are not that many who have found themselves in that situation.

I suggest that house buying and getting a bum survey and/or search is something many of us have experienced or feared. And we all know what we'd do. We'd change our mind. And we are able and allowed under law to change our mind even although we have made an offer that has been accepted - we are not committed to buying the house until we have exchanged - we can always change our mind and pull out.
 
Doon frae Troon said:
What I would like to know is, how is the magnificent Mr Fox is getting on with his 'easiest thing in the world' trade deals.
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The Fantastic Mr Fox is wriggling like a worm on a hook. Blaming the EU for it's intransigence in negotiations when he and we all know that what has made the negotiation very difficult are Mrs May's Red Lines - leaving the SM and the CU - and no longer freedom of movement. Does Mr Fantastic Fox think we are stupid? After Art50 was triggered and before she laid down these lines there was plenty of scope for negotiation. As soon as they were put down that scope shrunk massively - and May, Davis, Fox et al knew exactly that that would happen but kept the leave constituency in the dark - pretending that a deep and meaningful new form of relationship was possible - when they knew all along it wasn't.

And so we are where we are today. A Frankenstein's monster of a Deal being put to the EU, cobbled together from anything May could find that might work as a whole - but that in fact simply makes up a monster that is not surprisingly viewed as repulsive by hardline leavers - and is rejected by just about everyone who views it. A deal which like Frankenstein's monster will end up rejected by all and out in the cold - neither wanted nor loved by anybody.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
.

And so we are where we are today. A Frankenstein's monster of a Deal being put to the EU, cobbled together from anything May could find that might work as a whole - but that in fact simply makes up a monster that is not surprisingly viewed as repulsive by hardline leavers - and is rejected by just about everyone who views it. A deal which like Frankenstein's monster will end up rejected by all and out in the cold - neither wanted nor loved by anybody.
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I think May's proposal(Brino), and it is a proposal disgustingly put together by May's own team behind David Davis' back, undermining David Davis, is a good compromise deal. Yes it crosses the EU's red lines but the EU have been known to cross their own red lines when it suits them, e.g. the letting in of 10 countries in 2004(?) none of which could pass the financial requirements for entry. And many EU countries then restricted Freedom of Movement for several years from those countries. The EU can compromise when it wants to.

Aside from that, it was very interesting to see the calculations done on UK imports and exports, using WTO rules and the EU's tariff tables. Forget UK contributions being a number that will hurt the EU, and it will, the balance in tariff payments is over £300bn a year. 20% of French farmer's produce is exported to the UK, and we all know how militant the French farmers can be.
 
The Scottish Times adds to 'the headline is always a lie' saga.

Headline 'Scots Firms Split on Brexit'
Scroll down to results of the poll...…….6% think it will be a positive move, 44% think negative, the rest say its to early to know/undecided/wait and see.
Surprised they did not go with the 56% say Brexit is not a negative version.:angry:
 
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