Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Twire]

A view from within the EU

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275977272757274

I'm surprised you posted this as a remainer Phil.

 

[User62651]

Yes, that's correct. There was nothing funny about it and I doubt there was meant to be.

Someone found it funny, not you clearly. Lighten up a bit maybe? Digging at my every post makes you seem like a stalker.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm surprised you posted this as a remainer Phil.

Maybe that’s the problem with this thread and into the issue as whole - the lack of being able to see valid issues on both sides of the fence , I thought the guy brought up some very valid points and provided some factual information on the whole issue which I guess is quite an alien thing on the thread , it was certainly thought provoking from him

Oh and I just class myself as a UK citizen who wants what is best the whole country and not just a certain section who voted one way or the other

 

[Sweep]

Re cake and eat it - If you are in the club but opt to leave that club you cannot expect to enjoy the perks of being in the club. Brexit was sold as being just that, leaving whilst retaining the best parts like free trade and ditching the worst, like our contribution, that is what I meant.

EU gets treated by the media and many here as one entity when referring to negotiation when it is 27 member states all having to align and agree that negotiating position, they seem to have done that pretty well as they must value being in EU but I appreciate few have had the same level of immigration as UK and few pay as big a contribution. Ultimately 27 v 1 is not a good position in any kind of negotiation though and 26 have rallied round Ireland wrt the hard border issue despite internal friction/issues between member states and some keener than others to help us out. Ireland never had power over UK but as part of the EU it does.

The first paragraph is a sweeping statement. Brexit was not sold as a cake and eat it deal. I don’t know one single leaver who thinks we can leave and retain the benefits of being in.

The 27 have left it to Barnier to negotiate for them and that’s fair enough. It would be near impossible for them all to pitch in. So far, they seem united but I expect when the deal (or otherwise) is done, I am sure some will be happier than others and some will be looking closely at the rule book to see how they can improve their position with the UK (Spanish tourist trade for example).
Clearly some have more to lose than others.

 

[Sweep]

So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on

Mrs May hasn’t signed anything. You will recall a bit of a to do about Parliament having a meaningful day on that. They said no.
The EU say they have signed off on it meaning that’s what they have agreed and they are not negotiating any more. This is intransigence just when it isn’t needed or indeed wise. It’s typical of the EU’s negotiating style throughout brexit. I would expect the EU to move back from this position pretty sharpish, as right now the alternative is no deal. There is nothing May can do if they won’t negotiate. Parliament won’t let her sign the deal, thank goodness.

 

[Foxholer]

Not by any stretch of the imagination is this a good comparison. Why do we need analogies? we're big boys we can handle the truth!

Both the EU and the UK can stand independently. The 'structure' is not physical it is only an artificial political construct propped up by a Ponsi financial edifice of questionable debt instruments from the ECB and manipulated by the Brussels inefficient management.

So having poopooed analogies, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature).

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise

 

[SocketRocket]

Someone found it funny, not you clearly. Lighten up a bit maybe? Digging at my every post makes you seem like a stalker.

That's rich coming from you.

 

[harpo_72]

Answers

We dont want another referendum because it was a once in a lifetime vote
Things have not changed, we voted out because we wanted to leave.
They have not justified their statement
We are not united because remainers wont accept that we are leaving
My 5 year old grandson could have done better
No we weren't sucked in by Boris at al
Leaving should have been negotiated by leavers, not remainers
I dont care what you call leavers

Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay.
But you don’t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadn’t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know it’s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party.
I am glad.

 

[Sweep]

So having poopooed analogies, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature).

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise

You think the EU has efficient management? Surely You are kidding? Would you run a company like the EU is run? 2 head offices because the board can’t agree where we are based? No ratified accounts? Company reps on self cert expenses? Etc etc etc. As they say darn sarf, you are having a giraffe.
And btw. The EU should cost a lot less per person than a nations civil service. It isn’t a nation. All that work has been done. This is all additional cost.

 

[drdel]

So having poopooed analogies, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature).

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise

Not getting into a ongoing ping pong with you.

1. My comment was not an analogy (e.g. a comparison) it was a descriptive classification comment based on my own deductions.

2. I think the EU's QE level has distorted the growth of the bloc and now its stopped the debt interest the legacy will shackle member's future investment capacity: just look at the Greek's failed debt restructuring and unrepayable 'loans'.

3. Brussels is an additional level of 'management' amortised over a 350+mill population which will impact the marginal cost. Consequently the UK incurs the EU cost PLUS the Civil Service. If you want to bring down the marginal cost then Brussels should just engage more staff and thereby lower the CAPEX per head !!!

Over and out

 

[chrisd]

I think anyone who says that we didn't know what we were voting for should watch this

 

[Sweep]

Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay.
But you don’t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadn’t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know it’s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party.
I am glad.

As I have said before, the issue of whether we are leaving or not is decided. If you want a second referendum it should be to decide on a deal or no deal. Remain should not be an option. If you want to campaign for a referendum to rejoin after we have left, that’s fine. But we must respect and enact the referendum result. Oddly though, when faced with this choice most remainers lose interest in a second referendum. I wonder why?
And again, brexieers stood for the leadership. They just didn’t win. Because the party is at odds with the electorate and their core supporters.
Which brexiteets avoided negotiating?
Btw, winning a leadership election for a party in power, meaning you become PM overnight is a bit different to negotiating with the EU.
How can you say that brexiteets should have negotiated and in the same post say you are glad they didn’t?

 

[Fade and Die]

Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay.
But you don’t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadn’t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know it’s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party.
I am glad.

Ignoring the rest of your drivel the bold bit is factually incorrect. Mogg was on LBC last week and said this was fake/mocked up.

 

[ger147]

Corbyn amendment defeated and Labour abstaining from the SNP amendment to extend A50 so that will fail too. Conservative amendment should be voted on soon.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Corbyn amendment defeated and Labour abstaining from the SNP amendment to extend A50 so that will fail too. Conservative amendment should be voted on soon.

Isn’t there really just one amendment that’s going to really change things which is the one by Cooper ? To delay Art 50 to try and get a more favourable deal ?
Which seems a sensible thing and it’s trying to avoid leaving with no deal again seems sensible

 

[ger147]

Dominic Greave amendment defeated, first real biggie of the night.

 

[ger147]

Cooper amendment also defeated, a good night so far for TM.

 

[IanM]

Been locked away in a secure process all week, totally lost track of what all the blooming amendments are about... but guess they are mainly about stopping it

Federalism or Sovereignty. Your choice, a lettuce shortage isn’t really cutting it for me!

 

[SocketRocket]

Isn’t there really just one amendment that’s going to really change things which is the one by Cooper ? To delay Art 50 to try and get a more favourable deal ?
Which seems a sensible thing and it’s trying to avoid leaving with no deal again seems sensible

That amendment is designed to frustrate us leaving, nothing else.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Been locked away in a secure process all week, totally lost track of what all the blooming amendments are about... but guess they are mainly about stopping it

Federalism or Sovereignty. Your choice, a lettuce shortage isn’t really cutting it for me!

They are about delaying Art 50 if a deal isn’t reach by certain dates to get a better deal from what I can see and from what people are saying

No doubt people will see it as trying to stop Brexit - mainly down to paranoia I expect and certain being unable to see anything but what they want

It does seem that the government want to try and get a better deal or sort out certain issues ie border in Ireland etc but I suspect some don’t see that as trenches have been dug and it’s the old “Leave means Leave” and crash out no deal etc et.