Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

They are about delaying Art 50 if a deal isn’t reach by certain dates to get a better deal from what I can see and from what people are saying

No doubt people will see it as trying to stop Brexit - mainly down to paranoia I expect and certain being unable to see anything but what they want

If you're genuine about that, well said. However, would you draw your own date (red) line and say by now or we're off? After all, delaying things plays into the EU's hands in terms of extending the time that the UK pays its annual subs. And all the while the UK is paying its subs the EU is, understandably, putting in place processes to mitigate the loss of revenue. During that time, as can be seen in the agreement May has now, the UK is prohibited from setting up its own mitigations.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you're genuine about that, well said. However, would you draw your own date (red) line and say by now or we're off? After all, delaying things plays into the EU's hands in terms of extending the time that the UK pays its annual subs. And all the while the UK is paying its subs the EU is, understandably, putting in place processes to mitigate the loss of revenue. During that time, as can be seen in the agreement May has now, the UK is prohibited from setting up its own mitigations.

I just want the best deal possibly for the future of the UK and it’s work force , our relationship with our neighbours and ensure we don’t shoot ourselves in the foot - if that needs to take a bit of time then so be it. I would rather the best deal done over time than a poor deal done quickly to appease people

Our future should not be gambled with so quickly - it should be a careful well thought out process to ensure the best possible scenario

 

[Hobbit]

I just want the best deal possibly for the future of the UK and it’s work force , our relationship with our neighbours and ensure we don’t shoot ourselves in the foot - if that needs to take a bit of time then so be it. I would rather the best deal done over time than a poor deal done quickly to appease people

Our future should not be gambled with so quickly - it should be a careful well thought out process to ensure the best possible scenario

I'd like to think that that is what the vast majority of people want. Its just the mechanism of delivering that that people can't agree on, and that includes staying in the EU. Think about it. Take away the creeping federalism that many people believe is happening and what argument do they have?

 

[Foxholer]

Not getting into a ongoing ping pong with you.
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Good!

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1. My comment was not an analogy (e.g. a comparison) it was a descriptive classification comment based on my own deductions.
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Aka...Your analogy!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'd like to think that that is what the vast majority of people want. Its just the mechanism of delivering that that people can't agree on, and that includes staying in the EU. Think about it. Take away the creeping federalism that many people believe is happening and what argument do they have?

I don’t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of “hard core leavers “ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesn’t matter to them how but it’s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.

 

[ger147]

Amendment to rule out No Deal passed by 8 votes, first defeat of the night for TM. But not a legally binding amendment so can't see it making any difference. Brady amendment up next.

 

[Hobbit]

I don’t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of “hard core leavers “ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesn’t matter to them how but it’s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.

I think that you will always get the more ardent argument from those who want a hard line. I like to believe in the silent majority. For all the noise, the majority are more moderate.

 

[ger147]

Brady amendment passed by 317 to 301 votes, a good result for TM.

 

[Foxholer]

You think the EU has efficient management? Surely You are kidding? Would you run a company like the EU is run? 2 head offices because the board can’t agree where we are based? No ratified accounts? Company reps on self cert expenses? Etc etc etc. As they say darn sarf, you are having a giraffe.
And btw. The EU should cost a lot less per person than a nations civil service. It isn’t a nation. All that work has been done. This is all additional cost.

The cost of shunting to/from Strasbourg each month has been estimated at just over 100m Euros/year (more recent estimate £130-150m/year.
All EU folk involved would, apparently, prefer that it was scrapped, but that would require Treaty changes. That move/those clauses was/were insisted upon by France - the equivalent of a 'major shareholder in the company'. We've been through the myth of 'non-ratified' accounts before. Simply propaganda! And unless you can demonstrate significant 'self cert expenses' I'd call that propaganda too.

Btw. I'm not specifically defending the EU - simply asking for factual evidence!

EU procedures also reduce costs too. For example, there'll be lots more Border Control and Customs folk required by UK (and other countries) unless suitable arrangements are put in place! So the 'additional cost' argument doesn't hold water!

 

[huds1475]

Brady amendment passed by 317 to 301 votes, a good result for TM.

Immediately slapped down with a statement from Tusk saying backstop is part of the withdrawal agreement.

Comedy gold

 

[Hobbit]

EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."

 

[Deleted member 1147]

EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."

Not unlike an awful lot of big organisation’s accounts/audits.

 

[Old Skier]

And unless you can demonstrate significant 'self cert expenses' I'd call that propaganda!

As it is a well documented fact that there is no transparency on MEPs expenses nobody can demonstrate if expenses are self cert or not.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC don’t want a No Deal which imo is good

And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good

Hopefully it’s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity -

I think the SNP didn’t really come out of it well ?

 

[SocketRocket]

I don’t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of “hard core leavers “ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesn’t matter to them how but it’s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.

Lots! who are these lots of people? I certainly prefer a good trade deal and i believe most other leavers do. Its the hard core remainers that are muddying the waters on here and throwing around insults at anyone who wants to leave. Your post reinforces this view.

 

[ger147]

Will be interesting to see if there is any hint that the EU might budge when TM rocks up next.

 

[Old Skier]

I think the SNP didn’t really come out of it well ?

The leader of the SNP was full of misinformation, hatred and bile. Funny how a nationalist in the rest of the U.K. are classed as extreme right wing. This idiot's main aim with his little point of order was to try and cause fear and suspicion amongst the people of NI IMO.

 

[ColchesterFC]

So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC don’t want a No Deal which imo is good

And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good

Hopefully it’s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity -

I think the SNP didn’t really come out of it well ?

Unfortunately immediately slapped down by Donald Tusk and the Irish government saying that the Withdrawal Agrrement is not open for renegotiation. If anything I think that tonight could have taken us closer to a No Deal exit than we were before despite a majority in the HoC being against it. Unless the EU are willing to change their minds and look again at the Irish Backstop I can't see how a deal is going to get through Parliament and before we know it we'll arrive at 29th March with no agreement and be leaving by default with no deal.

 

[SocketRocket]

So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC don’t want a No Deal which imo is good

And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good

Hopefully it’s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity -

I think the SNP didn’t really come out of it well ?

Without the backup of no deal the UK loses the only thing the EU fear from us. It means they can offer any deal that suits them and we have nothing to counter it with but pointless groveling. I wonder what the view would be if the right to walk out was removed from trade unions.

 

[Mudball]

So the HoC has agreed they dont want a no-deal, they want an 'alternative' which they cant define. And now they want TMay to go back to Brusslles to find another deal. She will need a good copy of Trumps 'art of deal' or something...

Today sums up the whole Brexit Referendum in a nutshell... People know what they dont want (based on opinions), but cant agree what they want and then they all vote for their fearless leader to go and negotiate it the EU and get a good deal...