Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Lord Tyrion]

Can't we just agree we have some very advanced engineering and manufacturing skills and capabilities in this country. However due to global economic changes and government policy over the last few decades we are now relying heavily on services to shore up our economy, especially financial services. So whilst in theory it would be great if we could become a beacon of manufacturing excellence that will sustain our economy, in reality, due to the way our economy has now evolved, unfortunately manufacturing will only ever play a relatively niche role.

I'd agree with this. The problem is most bulk mfr goes to cheap labour locations. We can do the design, small and medium sized builds and manufacturing where being near to market makes sense. Everything else chases the lowest wage rates. Sad but true.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'd agree with this. The problem is most bulk mfr goes to cheap labour locations. We can do the design, small and medium sized builds and manufacturing where being near to market makes sense. Everything else chases the lowest wage rates. Sad but true.

I agree with that. the point I was trying to make was whether chasing the lowest wage rate is ultimately in our benefit. When you consider how it removes worthwhile jobs that would have been done by people with lower education achievements such that these people have to be supported by the state or do jobs on zero hours and minimum wage. Also we would be reducing our balance of trade deficit.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You are determined to 'put-down' anything non-Scottish and everything British: you're chip-on-shoulder blinkers on again. The vast majority... from the top of my head, here's a few Universities who specialise...

Birmingham
Cranfeild (Post Grad)
Imperial
Loughborough
Warwick

Cosworth Engineering have been training apprentices for over 5 decades in the area and supply advice to major manufacturers - Mercedes included!

Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
Pity we have no car industry in Scotland.
Probably the fault of the SNP for the last 70 years.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I agree with that. the point I was trying to make was whether chasing the lowest wage rate is ultimately in our benefit. When you consider how it removes worthwhile jobs that would have been done by people with lower education achievements such that these people have to be supported by the state or do jobs on zero hours and minimum wage. Also we would be reducing our balance of trade deficit.

I imagine chasing the lowest wage rate is not in the interest of UK PLC but is very much in the interest of companies answerable to shareholders, especially the big ones who can switch to different labour markets relatively easily. Who are increasingly controlling large parts of the world's economies. And that's without the spectre of automation of a lot of repetitive roles which I personally believe has had a minor but not insignificant impact on the make up of the jobs market and also fed into the recent disillusion of those who used to have traditional jobs that machines have replaced. And it will have a much more significant one in the future.

Whilst I agree that we should still be a country that can produce high quality engineers and engineered products, we also need to think how we will compete in a gig economy automated world. And I'm not hearing a lot of that from many at the moment in this debate. Although to be fair to TMay, I think I heard her say something about this somewhere recently.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports. Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to everything else covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World Trade Organisation).

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - Residency. No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency. Then what? Diddly squat to do with Trade. And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you'd been following it all closely you would know that the term "Canada +++" was made by Donald Tusk, and the pluses related to 3 defined things that Tusk offered.

EDIT: and David Davis wanted to say yes to the Canada +++ deal when it was offered in December last year.

Does seem ironic that for someone who has been following every single breath of Brexit you didn't know. Are you following it at all or just shouting "I don't want Brexit" whilst stamping your foot?

If it was offered to Davis why didn't he accept it? He was in charge? Methinks NI/EI border control and Tory party subservience to the DUP ruled it out as an Option. Besides - what Tusk post vote defined for Canada +++ is irrelevant to the vote as it wasn't defined before the vote so we could not have voted for it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Can't we just agree we have some very advanced engineering and manufacturing skills and capabilities in this country. However due to global economic changes and government policy over the last few decades we are now relying heavily on services to shore up our economy, especially financial services. So whilst in theory it would be great if we could become a beacon of manufacturing excellence that will sustain our economy, in reality, due to the way our economy has now evolved, unfortunately manufacturing will only ever play a relatively niche role.

Nice try but I fear there is little point in shining the light of realism on the aspirations and blue-sky-thinking of some Leave voters...

 

[MegaSteve]

Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
Pity we have no car industry in Scotland.
Probably the fault of the SNP for the last 70 years.

According to many remain campaigners lack of industry is entirely down to a lazy local workforce...

 

[Dellboy]

OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports. Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to everything else covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World Trade Organisation).

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - Residency. No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency. Then what? Diddly squat to do with Trade. And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.

You do really need to stop listening to LBC, I know you believe everything the idiot O’ Brien says, but he talks so much tosh it’s laughable

 

[Grant85]

Tony Blair was on Marr yesterday.

You forget how good he is as a political communicator - not that I ever voted for him - but there is a clear reason why he was one of the most successful politicians of our lifetime. Iraq war clearly being a huge failure and massive error of judgement.

He made a very logical case for a new referendum - which is along the lines of what was promised has not been delivered to the winners, so what is the point of leaving? Also we now have a far clearer idea of what the Brexit available to us looks like, so it is reasonable to say that people can now make a more informed position and that people on both sides are far more likely to get behind the result of a new referendum - even if the result is close again.

It was so clear and precise, you wonder what the Labour party are actually articulating themselves? They are a shambles of an opposition party and singularly failing to hold the government to account on the most important issue of the day.

I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.

 

[Old Skier]

OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports. Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to everything else covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World Trade Organisation).

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - Residency. No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency. Then what? Diddly squat to do with Trade. And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.

Why do you continue to go on about this deal or that deal. You like those remainers that have yet to accept the democratic result of the referendum would never accept a deal even if it was gold plated. Cable proved that today during the Politics show and Labour which the current deal is so close to there plan are still going to vote against it.

Any realist know that the political class and those that support them are doing everything that they can to derail any deal in the hope that Brexit will die.

PS: Any responce on the EU Army question yet as it looks more likely that Europe will be looking towards NATO dreckly.

 

[Beezerk]

Tony Blair was on Marr yesterday.

You forget how good he is as a political communicator - not that I ever voted for him - but there is a clear reason why he was one of the most successful politicians of our lifetime. Iraq war clearly being a huge failure and massive error of judgement.

He made a very logical case for a new referendum - which is along the lines of what was promised has not been delivered to the winners, so what is the point of leaving? Also we now have a far clearer idea of what the Brexit available to us looks like, so it is reasonable to say that people can now make a more informed position and that people on both sides are far more likely to get behind the result of a new referendum - even if the result is close again.

It was so clear and precise, you wonder what the Labour party are actually articulating themselves? They are a shambles of an opposition party and singularly failing to hold the government to account on the most important issue of the day.

I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.

Tony Blair needs to keep his gob shut.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.

It has been smart politics to shut up and let the Cons self destruct. A bit like a footballer who is out injured when the team are on a losing streak, you become better by doing nothing. You are right in that now they have to step up and play their cards but we will discover they are as split as the Conservatives on this. It will be interesting to see how many Labour MP's will back TM plan as they prefer it to No Deal. That has not really been talked about yet.

 

[Foxholer]

Tony Blair needs to keep his gob shut.

He was/is a politician! So keeping his gob shut is never going to happen!

He does communicate well though - but not as well as Bill Clinton!

 

[Hacker Khan]

It has been smart politics to shut up and let the Cons self destruct. A bit like a footballer who is out injured when the team are on a losing streak, you become better by doing nothing. You are right in that now they have to step up and play their cards but we will discover they are as split as the Conservatives on this. It will be interesting to see how many Labour MP's will back TM plan as they prefer it to No Deal. That has not really been talked about yet.

Eye, trouble is that with the country as divided as it ever has been and a government in a mostly shambolic state of infighting, backbiting and internal chaos, all of which was self inflicted, labour are still behind in the polls. As they are just as divided, Starmer and Corbyn saying opposing things etc etc.

We're long past the point of any politician looking at what is the best (or least worst now) scenario for the country as they are mostly now concerned about how this will play out politically and how they can ensure they benefit politically from it. And they are all at it from every party. There may well be many Labour MPs who think this deal is as good as we will get, but will vote against as that will increase the chances of a general election.

I can totally understand why some people have a desire to take back control, but honestly, if this lot are the best of the bunch that will be taking control after a potentially 'hard Brexit' then god help us.

 

[MegaSteve]

Blair was a great communicator...
It was delivery of promises he was poor at...

 

[Old Skier]

Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.

£1.5Bn spent on engineering defense shipping projects in Scotland this year while shipbuilding in N Devon has suffered.

Shame you can't acknowledge the good work the Westminister government is doing for Scottish shipbuilding while the rest of the U.K. suffers.

Source: Defence Questions know.

 

[Old Skier]

Blair was a great communicator...
It was delivery of promises he was poor at...

That's politicians for you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You do really need to stop listening to LBC, I know you believe everything the idiot O’ Brien says, but he talks so much tosh it’s laughable

Very good. So what is the answer to my question? WTO rules cover trade - and so - in the event of a No Deal what happens to everything else that is covered by the Withdrawal Agreement that is not trade related and is not addressed by trading under WTO rules.

And on alternative to May's Agreement - Secret Five - wherefore art thou? Gove, Leadsom, Grayling, Fox and Mordaunt - where's your alternative for May to take to the EU to renegotiate? Lots of noise when the details of the May Agreement leaked out and became known - but silence every since.

Meanwhile on the back benches the great leader Johnson just makes duplicitous and self-serving noises.

 

[Old Skier]

Very good. So what is the answer to my question? WTO rules cover trade - and so - in the event of a No Deal what happens to everything else that is covered by the Withdrawal Agreement that is not trade related and is not addressed by trading under WTO rules.

As it would effect all sides a sensible AGREEMENT to deal with issues outside of WTO rules seems very likely.