Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US".
 
spongebob59 said:
BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US".
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I wonder how the hell he would know , struggles to compile a sentence
 
To be honest, Tashyboy did not have a clue what the Brexit deal that has been agreed by the EU and the U.K. Was all about. Having just had a read about it. The one word that comes to mind is " shafted".
Migration, EU people coming to the UK up until the end of the transition period that could well be 2022 can stay in the UK. Eh.
The divorce bill will be 39 Billion plus other expenses including paying for EU officials pensions.
I could go on, but the bottom line is, Tashyboy thinks no deal is the odds on favourite at the moment. I cannot see it getting through Parliment.
 
Hacker Khan said:
I imagine chasing the lowest wage rate is not in the interest of UK PLC but is very much in the interest of companies answerable to shareholders, especially the big ones who can switch to different labour markets relatively easily. Who are increasingly controlling large parts of the world's economies. And that's without the spectre of automation of a lot of repetitive roles which I personally believe has had a minor but not insignificant impact on the make up of the jobs market and also fed into the recent disillusion of those who used to have traditional jobs that machines have replaced. And it will have a much more significant one in the future.

Whilst I agree that we should still be a country that can produce high quality engineers and engineered products, we also need to think how we will compete in a gig economy automated world. And I'm not hearing a lot of that from many at the moment in this debate. Although to be fair to TMay, I think I heard her say something about this somewhere recently.
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A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First) they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy through their education system. I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries. It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding doom and gloom for our future opportunities. Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.
 
SocketRocket said:
A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First) they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy through their education system. I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries. It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding doom and gloom for our future opportunities. Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.
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Hey, I love Germany as well, worked there a bit and have have good friends over there and I suspect that quite a few brits secretly wish we were more like them.

But they are part of the EU. I'd bloody love it if we stayed in the EU and took the Germany attitude to building a strong economy. But do you really think leaving the EU, potentially with a hard brexit and relying in the current shower that is the government and opposition will help matters? Have the EU in any way stopped us being more like Germany when it comes to trade and the economy?
 
Doon frae Troon said:
How your MP will vote makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal
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How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.
 
I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU.
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.
 
ColchesterFC said:
How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.
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I'd like to think they will vote for what is the best thing for the UK. They have access to a whole host of resources that can provide them with answers to many of the questions posed by the Brexit deal.

Sadly, apart from a few rebels in all the parties I think it will be along party lines. I wouldn't be surprised if the Whip is used, and I wouldn't be surprised if attempts are made to buy support in NI/Wales/Scotland with more £1bn sweeteners.

Forget the result of the referendum, the MP's will. You only have to listen to some of the MP's on Question Time to realise they do not respect the electorate, e.g. you only have to listen to John McDonnell and his thoughts on mass nationalisation to see that MP's believe more in political doctrine than they do the every day needs of the electorate.

As an aside, I got asked a question by a Spaniard a few days back. "Why do you English hate each other? You are an angry people." Only one person's view but it does make you wonder.
 
Doon frae Troon said:
I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU.
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.
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As much as I sort of agree with you, the deal is rubbish so why would you as an MP vote that way. By your train of thought, an MP should vote the way his constituents voted what ever deal was agreed between the UK and the EU.
 
ColchesterFC said:
How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.
Click to expand...

I'd also expect them to vote in what they think is the best interests of the UK and not based on their own quest for power. But there Bob Hope of that happening. They are in a very difficult position as if they had to vote without the referendum and without being whipped to an inch of their lives, I am pretty sure that the majority would vote to stay in. Remember the only party that had leaving the EU as a manifesto pledge was UKIP who have a grand total of zero MPs. And all we ever hear from the main parties are the noisy but actually quite small brigade on both extremes of the arguments, I firmly believe most MPs are OK with the status quo.

But as we have had a referendum then there is always the moral argument that they should vote based on the result of the referendum. And then people will interpret that either way depending on their preference; the majority of the constituency voted to stay so the MP should vote stay or the majority of the electorate voted to leave so they should vote leave. Either to me is an equally valid argument.

But they do not have the option to vote leave or stay, just accept the deal or reject it. And no one really knows if rejecting the deal will lead us to staying in or a hard Brexit. Or even if accepting the deal is a proper Brexit as some may have envisioned. So all in all a total cluster, and as we get closer to Brexit day, the decision to give the public the vote without any planning on what would happen if we voted to leave looks like being one of the the most stupid political decision ever made by a Uk government.
 
SocketRocket said:
A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First) they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy through their education system. I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries. It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding doom and gloom for our future opportunities. Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.
Click to expand...

Also I agree that education is very important. But as a chair of governors I can see what is happening to education at the moment in terms of funding. Watch the School program currently running on the BBC and you will see the challenges most schools are facing with regards to money and the cuts just about every school is having to make. Best of luck getting a highly educated future workforce in the current situation most teachers, who are really doing their best, have to work under.

You may see this as yet another example of me being down on the UK and specifically public spending and you may well be right. But to me if we are going to take back control then we really need to have a strong system in place to fund public services such as the NHS, police and schools, so we can support the whole society. Not the deregulated low tax economy that the hard Brexiters seem to want.
 
Doon frae Troon said:
I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU.
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.
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Herein lies the problem. The only absolute indicator of the views constituents is the result of the referendum, which as you say was before they/we had a clear picture of what would happen after a leave vote. Also muddying the water is the fact that some leave voters will support the agreement and others will oppose it as it's not proper Brexit. And that's without the remain voters that might be willing to reluctantly accept that we are going to leave and t this deal is the best we can hope for.

After the referendum we had a two way split in the country. After two years of negotiations we now have a four way split in the country.

Just out of interest is the 70% figure the remain vote at the referendum or from more recent opinion polls?
 
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