Boris the PM - a new beginning

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

EXACTLY..... are we really happy having a self-centered, cowardly, scheming liar in charge??

Whether we are happy or not - he is the PM we have and will most probably have for some years to come (unless he decides to hang up his PM boots once this has all calmed down a bit to spend more time with his Mrs and nipper)

 

[SocketRocket]

Yep.... all about sympathy & understanding whatever their politics!! & we've seen where that's taken us so far.
EDIT.... yeah, well said HK...... 'empathy'....... massively lacking so far...... on here & there!!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I’ve got no issues with boris or the Government in how they are handling this crisis, I’ve said before I don’t believe any Party could of done better.

Hopefully any lessons learnt along the way will be identified and be in place if, god forbid, this happens again or rectified straight away if need be.

The bit that does make me angry is when those defending boris say “it could be worse it could be Corbyn in charge” that’s a pathetic argument at these times, its peoples lives you’re talking about.

 

[2blue]

Whether we are happy or not - he is the PM we have and will most probably have for some years to come (unless he decides to hang up his PM boots once this has all calmed down a bit to spend more time with his Mrs and nipper)

CORRECT........ but lets never forget what we're lumbered with & how much he needs watching & holding to account.

 

[Hobbit]

Whilst I do agree, I just think that in the modern political landscape, where hyper-partisanship is much more common than it used to be, measuring success is almost impossible. There are more than enough people who will back Boris (and the Conservatives) whatever they do. To paraphrase DT. Boris could shoot an old lady in the street, and the supporters will claim that it was a heroic act!

And yes, before anyone says it, this works both ways. I grew up (and still live) in a Labour heartland. My family have always voted Labour. I've predominantly voted Labour (I've voted Lib Dem once and have protest voted Green in EU elections). I'll never vote Conservative. I don't believe their economic policies work for me and mine. However, if a Labour leader did something I thought showed a complete lack of character and or principle, then I'd want them to apologise at the very least.

Definitely a discussion worth having over a beer, just a shame distance and lockdown are in the way. Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, what do you mean by hyper-partisanship and why is it more common?

I think the expression of a person's politics is more prevalent, courtesy of the various social media platforms. And the use of those platforms by the various parties to access the electorate is more prevalent. The next bit is going to sound awful, but that's through clumsiness rather than arrogance. Some of the sound bite stuff put out by the various parties lacks... refinement and intelligence because its aimed at a section of society that might struggle with some complex issues - let's be honest, what you put in front of the blue rinse brigade won't work at the other end of the social spectrum.

But on the partisanship; what happened to Labour's red wall at the last election? The days of a vote blindly going in one direction or another are gone, almost. But your comment, "I'll never vote Conservative..." Wouldn't a more intelligent comment be I'd never vote Conservative whilst their policies are x, y, z? What happens if the Tories change? You still wouldn't vote for them - that's I'll bite my nose off to spite my face thing.

I've voted all 3 major parties in England, depending on manifesto and what I thought the country needed at that time. And I didn't vote at the last election because I found all the parties lacked the right policies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If I can just give one little example of where I am conflicted with our PM and the government - and i mention this as I was picked up on it when I posted yesterday when 'not right in the head'

I mentioned that he raised the 'if we hadn't done what we did we could have been facing 500,000 dead'. Now this might well be true and I accept it probably was mentioned back when the measures were being introduced - and so I am grateful that the government has enabled the country, through the various personal and business financing schemes, to practice the social distancing and other measures we have adhered to over the last 5 weeks. That's a very strong up-side of what the government has done for us.

However I simply do not recall any minister in any briefing bringing up that the 500,000 since, and in Johnson's absence. I admit that I can have selective memory with government minister briefings - especially when some are at the podium saying very little - but I just don't recall hearing it said. Until yesterday. And I am afraid that my instant thought (as instinctively I do not trust him) was that this is exactly what Trump is doing to big himself up in the eyes of the US electorate when telling them that without his measures US could be seeing 2,000,000 deaths by now. If they had done absolutely nothing - in the face of a viral pandemic.

And then along with the 500,000 figure Johnson paints a visual picture of a great mountain that we have put a tunnel through by doing what we've done. In fact as we all know that's not a very good analogy - but it does paint an impressive picture if you didn't quite appreciate it was the wrong picture. And my suspicious mind asks me 'Why is he doing this when his colleagues haven't been; is it because talking of this number and the imaginary are intended to make the current grim total of deaths with Covid-17 seem not so bad'?

And therein lies my conflict. The government seem to have managed some aspects well - but I am not sure I am totally trusting Johnson on the completeness of what he is saying.

In truth the only thing that really matters to me at this moment is that the government itself knows why we have the number we have - and what they could have done at the outset that might have helped reduce that number - and learn the lessons. So that whatever these lessons are, they build them into their planning for managing any further outbreaks following the relaxation that must come. I feel that they must be completely open and straight in telling us what that planning will require us to do - whenever and wherever a further outbreak might happen. Hopefully they will be. Actually I am pretty sure they will be.

 

[drdel]

Reading today's posts and the (IMO) somewhat petty squabbling from some usually measured members its pretty clear 'Cabin Fever' is kicking in.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Whilst I do agree, I just think that in the modern political landscape, where hyper-partisanship is much more common than it used to be, measuring success is almost impossible. There are more than enough people who will back Boris (and the Conservatives) whatever they do. To paraphrase DT. Boris could shoot an old lady in the street, and the supporters will claim that it was a heroic act!

And yes, before anyone says it, this works both ways. I grew up (and still live) in a Labour heartland. My family have always voted Labour. I've predominantly voted Labour (I've voted Lib Dem once and have protest voted Green in EU elections). I'll never vote Conservative. I don't believe their economic policies work for me and mine. However, if a Labour leader did something I thought showed a complete lack of character and or principle, then I'd want them to apologise at the very least.

Yes, I know, grew up there too. But I've seen Labour then, and I've seen it now. Which means I am not a one party man. As for party leaders shooting old ladies in the street, I sense a little hyperbole there?

 

[drdel]

If I can just give one little example of where I am conflicted with our PM and the government - and i mention this as I was picked up on it when I posted yesterday when 'not right in the head'

I mentioned that he raised the 'if we hadn't done what we did we could have been facing 500,000 dead'. Now this might well be true and I accept it probably was mentioned back when the measures were being introduced - and so I am grateful that the government has enabled the country, through the various personal and business financing schemes, to practice the social distancing and other measures we have adhered to over the last 5 weeks. That's a very strong up-side of what the government has done for us.

However I simply do not recall any minister in any briefing bringing up that the 500,000 since, and in Johnson's absence. I admit that I can have selective memory with government minister briefings - especially when some are at the podium saying very little - but I just don't recall hearing it said. Until yesterday. And I am afraid that my instant thought (as instinctively I do not trust him) was that this is exactly what Trump is doing to big himself up in the eyes of the US electorate when telling them that without his measures US could be seeing 2,000,000 deaths by now. If they had done absolutely nothing - in the face of a viral pandemic.

And then along with the 500,000 figure Johnson paints a visual picture of a great mountain that we have put a tunnel through by doing what we've done. In fact as we all know that's not a very good analogy - but it does paint an impressive picture if you didn't quite appreciate it was the wrong picture. And my suspicious mind asks me 'Why is he doing this when his colleagues haven't been; is it because talking of this number and the imaginary are intended to make the current grim total of deaths with Covid-17 seem not so bad'?

And therein lies my conflict. The government seem to have managed some aspects well - but I am not sure I am totally trusting Johnson on the completeness of what he is saying.

In truth the only thing that really matters to me at this moment is that the government itself knows why we have the number we have - and what they could have done at the outset that might have helped reduce that number - and learn the lessons. So that whatever these lessons are, they build them into their planning for managing any further outbreaks following the relaxation that must come. I feel that they must be completely open and straight in telling us what that planning will require us to do - whenever and wherever a further outbreak might happen. Hopefully they will be.

I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.

 

[bluewolf]

Definitely a discussion worth having over a beer, just a shame distance and lockdown are in the way. Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, what do you mean by hyper-partisanship and why is it more common?

I think the expression of a person's politics is more prevalent, courtesy of the various social media platforms. And the use of those platforms by the various parties to access the electorate is more prevalent. The next bit is going to sound awful, but that's through clumsiness rather than arrogance. Some of the sound bite stuff put out by the various parties lacks... refinement and intelligence because its aimed at a section of society that might struggle with some complex issues - let's be honest, what you put in front of the blue rinse brigade won't work at the other end of the social spectrum.

But on the partisanship; what happened to Labour's red wall at the last election? The days of a vote blindly going in one direction or another are gone, almost. But your comment, "I'll never vote Conservative..." Wouldn't a more intelligent comment be I'd never vote Conservative whilst their policies are x, y, z? What happens if the Tories change? You still wouldn't vote for them - that's I'll bite my nose off to spite my face thing.

I've voted all 3 major parties in England, depending on manifesto and what I thought the country needed at that time. And I didn't vote at the last election because I found all the parties lacked the right policies.

Ok, with regards to Hyper-Partisan. Meaning that people are now much more willing to overlook almost anything in their support of a person or Party. As best evidenced by our friends over the Atlantic.

The middle ground of easily "sway-able" voters is shrinking rapidly. There can be very little doubt that the reason for the swing to the Conservatives at the last Election was in no small part due to the Brexit shaped elephant in the room. Labour's policy was too difficult to understand for a certain demographic. It was too easily dismissed by the modern type of soundbite politics. A large section of the population switched off once the Brexit issue was turned into a Yes/No choice (even though Labour's policy wasn't actually a No - It was just framed that way by the Conservatives and the Conservative led media).

With regards to my "I'll never vote Conservative" comment. How about "I'll never vote Conservative whilst they follow the standard Conservative economic models". Which is ironic currently, as they're now the proud holders of "The most Socialist Economic Policies of a U.K. Government.. Ever" award. Bearing in mind that there is somewhere between zero and eff-all chance of the Conservatives dropping their Economic models, I think I'm fairly safe in saying that I'll never vote Conservative. Even if they make me better of financially (and they frequently do)...
Edit. I’d love the opportunity to discuss over a cerveza or 2. Preferably at your club rather than mine though ???

 

[bluewolf]

Yes, I know, grew up there too. But I've seen Labour then, and I've seen it now. Which means I am not a one party man. As for party leaders shooting old ladies in the street, I sense a little hyperbole there?

The hyperbole was intentional as it was supposed to highlight just how much certain politicians can get away with these days!

We all remember the Gordon Brown incident? Accidentally recorded calling a "lovely" little old lady a Bigot. Forced to go back and apologise! That simply wouldn't happen now. Boris has very rarely had to apologise for some of the terrible things he's said or done. He's not held to account at all. And that's dangerous in Politics.

Oh, and she was an old bigot as well.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I’ve got no issues with boris or the Government in how they are handling this crisis, I’ve said before I don’t believe any Party could of done better.

Hopefully any lessons learnt along the way will be identified and be in place if, god forbid, this happens again or rectified straight away if need be.

The bit that does make me angry is when those defending boris say “it could be worse it could be Corbyn in charge” that’s a pathetic argument at these times, its peoples lives you’re talking about.

I agree. Whilst I would consider Corbyn most unsuitable as a " normal times"
PM, I am sure that most fair minded UK citizens would take off their Party hats and, recognising the perilous situation we are in, agree that he and his team would try their best to defeat covid and protect the country as best they could. Which is where the analogy of wartime is valid.
And as most people are doing now.

 

[IanM]

I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!" Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks.

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!" Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks.

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change!

Plenty of examples of tory MP’s chucking rocks, and I’d find it incredibly sad if any MP from any party was sat sniggering behind closed doors, personally I’d like to believe they’d want to be involved to help the Country.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.

That may be true (though why give comparisons against other countries when comparison of numbers of deaths is we are told misleading) but I don't have any comparisons to make other than with the US. And indeed our government measures up splendidly against what Trump says - and probably pretty well against such as Governor Cuomo of NY State - who seems to be extremely open.

The issue simply arises when ministers are not able to answer quite simple little questions - so for instance two asked of the Robert Jenrick on the Today programme this morning relating to contact tracing. How many people have been recruited? and, We knew we'd have to do contact tracing so why didn't you start recruiting before 23rd April? On the first question the answer was a kind of 'don't know' - and he probably should have - the second he just did not really answer at all other than saying we have been doing contact tracing for some time - which wasn't really what he was asked.

Anyway he's not Johnson and maybe Johnson would have answered it differently.

 

[2blue]

I think the Labour Front Bench are all sniggering behind closed doors saying "thank goodness we lost!" Much easier sitting on the outside chucking rocks.

...and most of the country agree with them, so that's a nice change!

A very, very poor, thoughtless post is this

Plenty of examples of tory MP’s chucking rocks, and I’d find it incredibly sad if any MP from any party was sat sniggering behind closed doors, personally I’d like to believe they’d want to be involved to help the Country.

Plus the Newspapers that support them.
Also, the idea that MP's wouldn't want to address the very issues of supporting those in our society that are disadvantaged & vulnerable is an unbelievable suggestion, given it's what they stood for very recently.
It's becoming obvious that some are struggling to handle the 'Cabin-fever' so maybe time to go a little more gentle with them.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.

I disagree, you only have to look at the recording of care home deaths in England.
Why were the UK government so slow to start recording them.
Johnston's 'avoid the tragedy of other nations' comment yesterday shows someone prepared to cheat and lie at the drop of a hat.

[OT] Scots 'journalists' seem to be running a sweep as to see which one of them can ask the First Minister the most stupid question.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think you'd need to look long and hard to find a Government that has tried to be as transparent as the UK's. They have generally given the 'warts and all' in the daily briefings.

Not really, many governments have been praised for being honest and upfront with the nation. Indeed some have been praised for being rather more upfront about the consequences and measures needed at the start of the crisis than our PM originally was. Of course we're not as bad as the US or Brazil if that's the comparison pool, but then again who is.

 

[2blue]

Comparing NZ with the UK? Ok. Right. I see

It could have been dafter - Greenland was his next choice ?

Whoooosh...... you missed it yet again
NZ, Greenland, Iceland...... or Spain & Italy that we've been watching! Size & shape etc doesn't matter.... it's the decisions you make based on the importance you attach to those choices. And, a caring NZ made the better choices. I trust you're getting it now as I can't make it any clearer!!

 

[Hobbit]

Ok, with regards to Hyper-Partisan. Meaning that people are now much more willing to overlook almost anything in their support of a person or Party. As best evidenced by our friends over the Atlantic.

The middle ground of easily "sway-able" voters is shrinking rapidly. There can be very little doubt that the reason for the swing to the Conservatives at the last Election was in no small part due to the Brexit shaped elephant in the room. Labour's policy was too difficult to understand for a certain demographic. It was too easily dismissed by the modern type of soundbite politics. A large section of the population switched off once the Brexit issue was turned into a Yes/No choice (even though Labour's policy wasn't actually a No - It was just framed that way by the Conservatives and the Conservative led media).

With regards to my "I'll never vote Conservative" comment. How about "I'll never vote Conservative whilst they follow the standard Conservative economic models". Which is ironic currently, as they're now the proud holders of "The most Socialist Economic Policies of a U.K. Government.. Ever" award. Bearing in mind that there is somewhere between zero and eff-all chance of the Conservatives dropping their Economic models, I think I'm fairly safe in saying that I'll never vote Conservative. Even if they make me better of financially (and they frequently do)...
Edit. I’d love the opportunity to discuss over a cerveza or 2. Preferably at your club rather than mine though ???

I know we’re straying well away from the point but I do question one point you made, that of the Conservatives having the most socio-economic policies of a U.K. govt ever. As much as it’s difficult for everyone to see past Iraq, have a look at what Blair’s govts achieved. Until the god complex/GW’s puppy phase set in, wow what a record of socialist achievements. What a fab PM in the early days.

And if you do ever get here, there’ll be more than 2 cervezas.