Ball not in penalty area.

[Wildboy370]

Had an odd situation. Guy in our three ball tees off. Ball looks like it went in to pond, penalty area. As he gets to drop from point of entry we walked down had quick look in pond as bit over grown. No ball to be seen. He drops and plays new ball, nothing said, ie lost ball or provisional. We walk round other side of pond into fairway and his ball is sat down in the second cut just visible on the other side of pond outside penalty area. As we all thought his ball had gone in the pond, we never looked other side. He hadn’t had 3 mins of looking time. So could he of played his first ball for second shot or had he to carry on playing ball he hit playing 3 after drop ? I don’t think he could as he never said ball played was provisional so once he drops that ball is in play and other is dead ?

 

[rulie]

By your description, I would suggest that it was not known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the penalty area. If that's true, then it's a mess. He cannot play his original ball. The only Rule that can be applied to his actions is stroke and distance by playing a ball from the teeing area. Because he did not play from the teeing area, he has played from a wrong place, very likely with a serious breach which must be corrected. He would return to the teeing area and be playing his 5th stroke (initial tee shot, one stroke for stroke and distance, two strokes for wrong place).
I'm certain there will be more discussion about this situation!

 

[CliveW]

You can only play a provisional from where the original shot was played.

 

[salfordlad]

By your description, I would suggest that it was not known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the penalty area. If that's true, then it's a mess. He cannot play his original ball. The only Rule that can be applied to his actions is stroke and distance by playing a ball from the teeing area. Because he did not play from the teeing area, he has played from a wrong place, very likely with a serious breach which must be corrected. He would return to the teeing area and be playing his 5th stroke (initial tee shot, one stroke for stroke and distance, two strokes for wrong place).
I'm certain there will be more discussion about this situation!

May well be more discussion, but unless there was 95 per cent certainty that the original ball was in the pond at the time that another ball was put into play from next to the pond, this is absolutely the correct answer. If that KVC (95 per cent) hurdle was met, then the ball played from next to the pond is in play lying three and the original now found on the other side of the pond is simply a wrong ball and cannot be played.
And that ball played from next to the pond cannot be a provisional on the facts presented.

You can only play a provisional from where the original shot was played.

Generally true, but exceptions can exist if MLR B-3 is posted for that location.

 

[Orikoru]

By your description, I would suggest that it was not known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the penalty area. If that's true, then it's a mess. He cannot play his original ball. The only Rule that can be applied to his actions is stroke and distance by playing a ball from the teeing area. Because he did not play from the teeing area, he has played from a wrong place, very likely with a serious breach which must be corrected. He would return to the teeing area and be playing his 5th stroke (initial tee shot, one stroke for stroke and distance, two strokes for wrong place).
I'm certain there will be more discussion about this situation!

You can still be virtually certain it was in the pond and then find out you were wrong. That's why it's 'virtually' certain and not certain. I think it's a poor wording with plenty of grey area, but it is what it is.

In the scenario given, I think once he dropped a new ball and hit it (his third shot) then that ball is in play, and if you find the original ball after that then it's tough luck. He couldn't have said it was a provisional anyway because a provisional can only be played from the point of the original shot (the tee in this case).

That's for a competition anyway. If it happened in a friendly round with nothing riding on it, I might have been kind enough to let him play the original ball once found and ignore the dropped one.

 

[rulefan]

That's for a competition anyway. If it happened in a friendly round with nothing riding on it, I might have been kind enough to let him play the original ball once found and ignore the dropped one.

Why go there?. This is after all a Rules of Golf forum. Do people really need encouragement to not play by the Rules?

But what about a friendly General Play round?

 

[chrisd]

In the scenario given, I think once he dropped a new ball and hit it (his third shot) then that ball is in play, and if you find the original ball after that then it's tough luck.

But that's where the problem starts, under the circumstances he absolutely could not drop a ball in that fashion and it could not be the ball in play

 

[Orikoru]

But that's where the problem starts, under the circumstances he absolutely could not drop a ball in that fashion and it could not be the ball in play

What? Why?

 

[Whereditgo]

Isn't this situation covered very clearly by 17.1.c?

 

[Colin L]

The ball dropped and played in the belief that relief was being taken from the penalty area is the ball in play. See the Definition of In Play where we are told your ball remains in play except when (amongst other situations) "another ball has been substituted for it, even if not allowed by a Rule." Whether or not the player was correct in what he did, by dropping that ball he was substituting it for the original and it was in play. When he found the original, it was out of play. The question is whether there was knowledge or virtual certainty that the original was lost in the penalty area. What the player does next depends on the answer to that, but whichever way the decision goes he continues play with the substituted ball.

 

[rulefan]

What? Why?

As said by Rulie and the post after yours

it was not known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the penalty area.

 

[rulefan]

The ball dropped and played in the belief that relief was being taken from the penalty area is the ball in play. See the Definition of In Play where we are told your ball remains in play except when (amongst other situations) "another ball has been substituted for it, even if not allowed by a Rule." Whether or not the player was correct in what he did, by dropping that ball he was substituting it for the original and it was in play. When he found the original, it was out of play. The question is whether there was knowledge or virtual certainty that the original was lost in the penalty area. What the player does next depends on the answer to that, but whichever way the decision goes he continues play with the substituted ball.

Wouldn't that ball have been played from a wrong place?

 

[chrisd]

What? Why?

As has been said, it wasn't known or virtually certain that his ball was in the hazard

 

[Colin L]

Wouldn't that ball have been played from a wrong place?

If it were decided that there was no certainty that the original was not in the penalty area, then yes. But proceeding correctly from having done so is continuation of play with the substituted ball, the ball in play, is it not?

 

[rulefan]

If it were decided that there was no certainty that the original was not in the penalty area, then yes. But proceeding correctly from having done so is continuation of play with the substituted ball, the ball in play, is it not?

Yes but I was assuming that in the circumstances that the entry point was not known or at least the ball was probably not dropped in the right place.

 

[Orikoru]

As said by Rulie and the post after yours

it was not known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the penalty area.

As I said before, just because they turned out to be incorrect, it does not mean they weren't VIRTUALLY certain.

 

[Orikoru]

As has been said, it wasn't known or virtually certain that his ball was in the hazard

As above.

 

[rulefan]

just because they turned out to be incorrect, it does not mean they weren't VIRTUALLY certain.

That of course is correct but the OP made no mention of that one way or the other. In fact we don't know if the player even knew of the requirement.

 

[Beedee]

we walked down had quick look in pond as bit over grown.

For me, the actuality of this description is the key bit. Where in the continuum does "bit overgrown" come? Is it "well manicured with a few weeds" or is it "as likely to find a family of mountain gorillas as a golf ball"? Close to the former, and I'm happy with a "virtually certain" so drop away. Anywhere remotely near, or tbh even quite a distance from, the latter and it's a lost ball - back to to tee.

However, without being familiar with the actual location we have to rely of the OP's words which are a bit vague.

 

[Slab]

I can easily imagine situations where a ball is 100% seen to enter a penalty area but not seen to exit it (ball skips on the water or hits rock just under the surface and flies off etc)

So for sure it’d be known or virtually certain it went in to the penalty area and at the same time the player can have no knowledge that it exited the penalty area

Wouldn’t the player be correct in taking the drop at point of entry even if they subsequently found the original ball on the far bank after a new ball was put into play?