Ball moved and incorrectly dropped instead of placed

[Dutch Boy]

Stroke play. Searching for my ball and fellow competitors in a cart call out that they had run over it and then had dropped it next to where it was pushed into the ground. The lie was ok so I played it. I then realised what was said in that the ball was dropped and not placed. Have I incurred a one stroke penalty because the ball was dropped and not placed under rule 14?

 

[Steven Rules]

Stroke play. Searching for my ball and fellow competitors in a cart call out that they had run over it and then had dropped it next to where it was pushed into the ground. The lie was ok so I played it. I then realised what was said in that the ball was dropped and not placed. Have I incurred a one stroke penalty because the ball was dropped and not placed under rule 14?

Actually two strokes in all probability.

Interpretation 14.2b(2)/1
Player Drops Ball When Ball Is to Be Replaced
When a player drops a ball when the Rules require him or her to replace the ball, the ball has been replaced in a wrong way. If the player replaces the ball in a wrong way, but on the required spot (this also includes if the player drops the ball and it comes to rest on the required spot), he or she gets one penalty stroke if the ball is played without correcting the mistake under
Rule 14.5
(Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball).
But if the player has dropped a ball and that ball comes to rest somewhere other than on the required spot, he or she gets the general penalty for playing from a wrong place if the ball is played without correcting the mistake

 

[Steven Rules]

Just to expand on that a bit. The ball at rest was lifted or moved by an outside influence. (Rule 9.6). It was required to be replaced on the original spot. (I won't go into procedure for altered lie here.) The player was aware an outside influence had moved the ball and the player didn't subsequently replace it on the original spot as required by 9.6.

See my original post above for the rest of the story from here.

 

[chrisd]

Actually two strokes in all probability.

Interpretation 14.2b(2)/1
Player Drops Ball When Ball Is to Be Replaced
When a player drops a ball when the Rules require him or her to replace the ball, the ball has been replaced in a wrong way. If the player replaces the ball in a wrong way, but on the required spot (this also includes if the player drops the ball and it comes to rest on the required spot), he or she gets one penalty stroke if the ball is played without correcting the mistake under
Rule 14.5
(Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball).
But if the player has dropped a ball and that ball comes to rest somewhere other than on the required spot, he or she gets the general penalty for playing from a wrong place if the ball is played without correcting the mistake

I get the penalty - but I doubt anyone knew exactly (or even close) to where the ball actually lay and replacing it would be pretty impossible. Harsh but I do understand!

 

[Steven Rules]

And when I think about it further, it was not actually the player who did the dropping vs placing so the whole drop instead of place thing is a red herring. It is just a vanilla straightforwad general penalty for playing from a wrong place.

 

[Steven Rules]

I get the penalty - but I doubt anyone knew exactly (or even close) to where the ball actually lay and replacing it would be pretty impossible. Harsh but I do understand!

Rule 9.6 (again) - The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated)

 

[chrisd]

Rule 9.6 (again) - The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated)

I know Steven

 

[Slab]

I get the penalty - but I doubt anyone knew exactly (or even close) to where the ball actually lay and replacing it would be pretty impossible. Harsh but I do understand!

In this case the ball shaped hole in the ground where the buggy rolled over it (next to where the ball was dropped) might be a good starting point

 

[salfordlad]

In this case the ball shaped hole in the ground where the buggy rolled over it (next to where the ball was dropped) might be a good starting point

Indeed so. With that as the starting point, what the player needed to do to proceed correctly - assuming the ball's original spot was not in sand - was place it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie within 1CL, not nearer the hole and in the same area of the course as that original lie.

 

[Slab]

Indeed so. With that as the starting point, what the player needed to do to proceed correctly - assuming the ball's original spot was not in sand - was place it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie within 1CL, not nearer the hole and in the same area of the course as that original lie.

thanks for that, I did wonder if the player should repair the indentation and replace ball on original spot... but reading your reply I can see why my 'guess' wouldn't work in all situations like this

 

[Dutch Boy]

Thanks everyone for your comments. The ball was in the GA and not in sand.
So the only way for me to avoid a penalty before the stroke was to pick up the dropped ball and place it as stated above.
Cheers

 

[salfordlad]

thanks for that, I did wonder if the player should repair the indentation and replace ball on original spot... but reading your reply I can see why my 'guess' wouldn't work in all situations like this

This is where the distinction between 14.2d(1) and 14.2d(2) bites. If the altered lie is in sand, the lie needs to be recreated (14.2d(1)). If not in sand, the place in nearest spot with most similar lie etc, etc applies (14.2d(2)).

 

[rulie]

What is the sand issue? The ball was not embedded (according to the definition).

 

[salfordlad]

What is the sand issue? The ball was not embedded (according to the definition).

Nothing to do with embedded (16.3), OP advises ball run over and pushed into the ground - so original lie altered and 14.2d needs to be applied. For player to respond correctly, a different action is required if the original lie was in sand or not.

 

[Colin L]

Nothing to do with embedded (16.3), OP advises ball run over and pushed into the ground - so original lie altered and 14.2d needs to be applied. For player to respond correctly, a different action is required if the original lie was in sand or not.

.... but still 14.2d.

 

[salfordlad]

.... but still 14.2d.

I thought that was precisely what I wrote - 14.2d needs to be applied and it prescribes different actions for sand or not sand.

 

[Colin L]

I thought that was precisely what I wrote - 14.2d needs to be applied and it prescribes different actions for sand or not sand.

Indeed it was. Blame the reader. ?

 

[tobybarker]

Does the player who moved someone else's ball incur a penalty?

 

[salfordlad]

Does the player who moved someone else's ball incur a penalty?

In stroke play, accidental movement of another player's ball is no penalty. In match play, accidental movement of opponent's ball generally gets one stroke penalty, but there are exceptions, see rule 9.5.

 

[tobybarker]

He ran over the ball accidentally but lifted and dropped it on purpose