Atheism and Theism

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As a kid I was told there is a God, and I supposed I believed it. Just like I believed in Santa and the tooth fairy. But once I got old enough to think about it logically, it is just something that never had me convinced, and I do not believe in it at all as an adult.

Firstly, it just seems weird that there have been so many different religions, and people have been very strong in their views depending on what part of the world they are from or what course of history they have lived. Only weird if it was actually true. Not weird if religious beliefs were made up by man and spread to those around them.

Secondly, century's ago religion seemed a very useful idea for humans to play with. Scientific knowledge was lacking, and humans always want to know answers. So, for all the great unknowns, dreaming up of an all powerful being that created everything seemed a pretty good theory. Even better, you could use this all powerful being as a threat to people that would step out of place, and help justify punishing them. I'd imagine policing centuries ago was also pretty non-existent, so setting up a few key commands from the almighty God himself was a great idea.

I've no issue with the millions of religious people who use it as a comfort to them, although I'd hope their morality was based more on them just wanting to be a good person rather than trying to behave in a way they think their God wants them to act. It is also scary that there are elements of the human race who are capable of doing extraordinarily awful things purely on how they interpret their religion. Not just today, but all throughout history, from many many different religions.

I don't know what the reality is. I guess we may very well just start to exist, and then one day cease to exist. But, the sheer scale and almost infinite size of the universe is fascinating, so God knows ( ) what else will be discovered in the years to come, well beyond my lifetime.

If you are interested and so inclined...Robert Winston covers all you mention and much more in his book The Story of God...in which he examines the relationship between science and religion across time, beginning with the primitive worship of our earliest ancestors.

The Story Of God: Amazon.co.uk: Winston, Robert: 9780593054932: Books

Buy The Story Of God Reprint by Winston, Robert (ISBN: 9780593054932) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[rulefan]

Are all those here who are not Theists, Atheists or Agnostics?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There’s perhaps a pointer to the difference in the way I’d try and deal with such a personal harm - the way exemplified by Gordon Wilson.

I, my family and all of my wider family were caused terrible upset and distress by my brother-in-law when my sister fell ill and died (I won’t go into it but it was dreadfully upsetting). I have had to forgive him what he did, and I told him that at the time. Indeed in the three years since then I call him once a year to ask him how he is and whether or not he needs any support (he has difficult medical conditions) - and I don't ask him why he did and acted as he did. It’s not easy but I knew I had and have to do it and that I could…otherwise I’d be carrying fury and resentments around with me for possibly the rest of my life.

I do this despite him not having expressed any remorse or regret whatsoever…but that is actually neither here nor there in the context of me doing what I do…though it would be nice if he did see his way..

Yes, it seems laudable to have a doctrine ( or belief) in forgiveness but this can and is taken advantage of. Forgiving being upset or offended or slighted on a personal mental level is one thing, but when the offending ,physically or brutally ruins lives or livelihoods , looking to extend forgiveness into those areas can and does creep into the possibility of encouraging it to continue or grow ( within society).
It can lessen the gravity with which such acts should be dealt with, thus resulting in in more and more of such acts being inflicted on society.
What good people see as forgiveness, villains see as weakness to be exploited ?
And I think that is something I have seen happen in my lifetime in this country.

Maybe practicing Cleopatra’s forgiveness on evil people could return?

 

[Neilds]

Are all those here who are not Theists, Atheists or Agnostics?

I don’t give my self a label, just too many around nowadays and it’s just too confusing. Same with my wife - when I was in the RAF she always said she wasn’t a Military Wife, just the wife of someone who happens to be in the military. People always get too hung up on labels, despite usually moaning that they are labelled!

 

[Voyager EMH]

Are all those here who are not Theists, Atheists or Agnostics?

The undecided?

"I'm not sure - I'll give it some more thought."

A very sensible approach.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes, it seems laudable to have a doctrine ( or belief) in forgiveness but this can and is taken advantage of. Forgiving being upset or offended or slighted on a personal mental level is one thing, but when the offending ,physically or brutally ruins lives or livelihoods , looking to extend forgiveness into those areas can and does creep into the possibility of encouraging it to continue or grow ( within society).
It can lessen the gravity with which such acts should be dealt with, thus resulting in in more and more of such acts being inflicted on society.
What good people see as forgiveness, villains see as weakness to be exploited ?
And I think that is something I have seen happen in my lifetime in this country.

Maybe practicing Cleopatra’s forgiveness on evil people could return?

The sort of personal forgiveness I am talking about does not excuse or exonerate the perpetrator of the ill or the crime; nor does it mean that the perpetrator does not have to face any justice as legally provisioned for by the state and/or the courts.

My (Christian) forgiveness is one that enables me to hand back any mental pain and anguish I have as a result of the action that has hurt me - in that way enabling me to continue my life without carrying that pain in my head - and as it is a spiritual forgiveness I don’t have to actually say the words of my forgiveness to the individual in person…though if I can I will. But I’ll make clear - and as I have said - I’m not excusing or exonerating them.

I’m not saying it’s easy…in fact it can be very hard indeed but with faith it can be done. See again…Gordon Wilson.

 

[Deleted member 18645]

Only the Daily Mail could have a headline and a story like this.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

View attachment 58626

Only the Daily Mail could have a headline and a story like this

I suppose you do know that media reporting stories doesn’t mean the editors and staff believe them, do you?

 

[Deleted member 18645]

I suppose you do know that media reporting stories doesn’t mean the editors and staff believe them, do you?

Having been a journalist for over 40 years, I can safely assume I have a little more experience in the field than most. The state of on-line newspapers these days is appalling - it's not news, it's clickbait. Stories are made up, AI-generated and posted. Most real journalists would have nothing to do with anything like this. The Daily Mail for example employs a bunch of interns to do nothing else but post provocative comments on stories looking for more responses.

But that headline is just beyond belief. I mean, if you died and came back to life, you'd pick a better class of media to talk about it than the Daily Mail

 

[KenL]

Having been a journalist for over 40 years, I can safely assume I have a little more experience in the field than most. The state of on-line newspapers these days is appalling - it's not news, it's clickbait. Stories are made up, AI-generated and posted. Most real journalists would have nothing to do with anything like this. The Daily Mail for example employs a bunch of interns to do nothing else but post provocative comments on stories looking for more responses.

But that headline is just beyond belief. I mean, if you died and came back to life, you'd pick a better class of media to talk about it than the Daily Mail

Agreed. The Express predicts, at least once a week, that a massive storm is about to hit.

 

[bobmac]

Is the universe infinite?
Where do we go when we die?
How did we get here?
What was here before us?
etc

There are so many questions without answers so the easiest thing to do is make one up....
Someone put us here....a creator.
Brilliant, perfect answer. Press Ctrl save and take the rest of the day off.
Makes sense, answers all the tough questions except of course....where did the creator come from.
Back to square one.

I only have one question.....
If the Universe is 13.8 billion years old and the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, what did the creator do for the other 9.3 billion years?
Just as well he had Sunday off.

 

[Neilds]

Is the universe infinite?
Where do we go when we die?
How did we get here?
What was here before us?
etc

There are so many questions without answers so the easiest thing to do is make one up....
Someone put us here....a creator.
Brilliant, perfect answer. Press Ctrl save and take the rest of the day off.
Makes sense, answers all the tough questions except of course....where did the creator come from.
Back to square one.

I only have one question.....
If the Universe is 13.8 billion years old and the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, what did the creator do for the other 9.3 billion years?
Just as well he had Sunday off.

It took ages to paint all the stars on the black background to make us think there is something else out there

 

[Don Barzini]

It's fair and reasonable for someone to hold an opinion on religion although like other topics an opinion should be formed by making a determined effort to understand the subject.

Has the OP studied the religions he comments on or are his comments formed by cherry picked publications that are using quotes and extracts completely out of context. How many have read the Bible or Koran before dismissing them, how many have made an attempt to understand the context of
their story before decrying them. It's a bit like climate change, it's easy to proclaim or deny without making an effort to study it, to pull out bits and pieces of the overall subject and ridicule or support something by lazy knee jerk reaction.
Believe it or deny by all means but make a reasonable attempt to form an unbiased view based not on what many churches and sects wish to put out.

Good question, happy to answer it.

I would say I have made a reasonably good attempt to understand it. More than some people probably, certainly not as much as others. My investigations have mainly taken the form of listening to debates/lectures by and from people of both sides. Admittedly, most of these have centred around Christianity because being born and bred in the UK (and going to a C of E primary school) that's the one I'm most familiar with. But I have done a little bit of looking at other religions too and my position remains the same - I have never seen or been presented with any evidence which is sufficient for me to believe in a supernatural being or god.

The counter-questions I would pose to a theist who asks me this question is how about you? Have you studied all the religions before dismissing all but your own? What makes you think your beliefs are correct and theirs aren't?

The minimum best estimates of how many different deities humankind has worshipped since we appeared on this earth is 2,500. The highest estimate is around 50,000. Let's assume it's at the low end of the scale and take 2,500. Has the theist studied all 2,500 of them? Do you believe in Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec god of wind? Why not Inti, the Incan sun god? What's unbelievable about Ra, the Falcon-headed Egyptian god? Why not the Norse god Thor or the Babylonian god Marduk? (etc etc etc)

Someone on this thread has already alluded to this. But assuming the theist I'm talking to believes in a monotheistic religion, I have to point out that they and I are not so vastly different. They don't believe in 2,499 gods. I have simply gone one number higher than they have.

Regarding cherry picking quotes and extracts completely out of context, not really. For example, Christians often argue their god is timeless, all-loving and all-knowing. Yet the god of the bible endorses slavery. Repeatedly. He sets out rules and regulations about how to keep and treat slaves and how to get round the rules about freeing them. There is no other way to interpret that, despite the many incredibly inventive ways Christian apologists attempt to. If he was indeed all-loving, he wouldn't want any human enslaved. If he was timeless, he'd have known in biblical times that slavery would be viewed as disgusting 2,000 years later.

I'll respect your right to believe in and worship any god you like, but that respect doesn't include me glossing over the evil bits your deity of choice has participated in.

 

[Deleted member 18645]

Agreed. The Express predicts, at least once a week, that a massive storm is about to hit.

At least they've stopped with the "Prince Philip and MI5 conspired to murder Diana and Dodi" stories though.

 

[Deleted member 18645]

Is the universe infinite?
Where do we go when we die?
How did we get here?
What was here before us?
etc

There are so many questions without answers so the easiest thing to do is make one up....
Someone put us here....a creator.
Brilliant, perfect answer. Press Ctrl save and take the rest of the day off.
Makes sense, answers all the tough questions except of course....where did the creator come from.
Back to square one.

I only have one question.....
If the Universe is 13.8 billion years old and the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, what did the creator do for the other 9.3 billion years?
Just as well he had Sunday off.

God created the Earth in six days. Went to bed with a hangover, woke up and created Janet Bloody Street Bloody Porter. Rowan Atkinson, 1980

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Good question, happy to answer it.

I would say I have made a reasonably good attempt to understand it. More than some people probably, certainly not as much as others. My investigations have mainly taken the form of listening to debates/lectures by and from people of both sides. Admittedly, most of these have centred around Christianity because being born and bred in the UK (and going to a C of E primary school) that's the one I'm most familiar with. But I have done a little bit of looking at other religions too and my position remains the same - I have never seen or been presented with any evidence which is sufficient for me to believe in a supernatural being or god.

The counter-questions I would pose to a theist who asks me this question is how about you? Have you studied all the religions before dismissing all but your own? What makes you think your beliefs are correct and theirs aren't?

The minimum best estimates of how many different deities humankind has worshipped since we appeared on this earth is 2,500. The highest estimate is around 50,000. Let's assume it's at the low end of the scale and take 2,500. Has the theist studied all 2,500 of them? Do you believe in Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec god of wind? Why not Inti, the Incan sun god? What's unbelievable about Ra, the Falcon-headed Egyptian god? Why not the Norse god Thor or the Babylonian god Marduk? (etc etc etc)

Someone on this thread has already alluded to this. But assuming the theist I'm talking to believes in a monotheistic religion, I have to point out that they and I are not so vastly different. They don't believe in 2,499 gods. I have simply gone one number higher than they have.

Regarding cherry picking quotes and extracts completely out of context, not really. For example, Christians often argue their god is timeless, all-loving and all-knowing. Yet the god of the bible endorses slavery. Repeatedly. He sets out rules and regulations about how to keep and treat slaves and how to get round the rules about freeing them. There is no other way to interpret that, despite the many incredibly inventive ways Christian apologists attempt to. If he was indeed all-loving, he wouldn't want any human enslaved. If he was timeless, he'd have known in biblical times that slavery would be viewed as disgusting 2,000 years later.

I'll respect your right to believe in and worship any god you like, but that respect doesn't include me glossing over the evil bits your deity of choice has participated in.

If the God of my understanding deliberately created humankind as different from all other creatures in that humankind knows good and evil and has free will to choose what he does, then that same God could not at the same time tell humankind that it had to do one thing or the other - that decision could only be left to humankind. That we have made some very bad and terrible choices over time - often given interpretations to fit their will of what others had written down as best they understood things - well I would say (of course I would) that my God would despair at our sin and bad decisions but then help us to work to remediate the bad outcomes of what we have done. Anyway - that's how my God works for me.

 

[Don Barzini]

If God deliberately created humankind as different from all other creatures in that humankind has free will to choose, then that same God could not at the same time tell humankind that it had to do one thing or the other - that decision could only be left to humankind. That we have made some very bad and terrible choices over time - often given interpretations to fit their will of what others had written down as best they understood things - well I would say (of course I would) that my God would despair at our sin and bad decisions but then help us to work to remediate the bad outcomes of what we have done. Anyway - that's how my God works for me.

Sorry, you’re saying that god couldn’t have told man not to enslave other human beings? God told man all sorts of stupid stuff they couldn’t do so I’m afraid that doesn’t wash with me at all.

Don’t wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, don’t plant two kinds of seeds on the same vineyard, don’t eat shellfish, no trimming the sides of your beard or hair, death penalty if you work on a Sunday, don’t touch a woman when she’s on her period, don’t eat pork, no hunchbacks or dwarfs allowed to become a priest….I could go on.

These are all things that the god of the bible told man he was or wasn’t allowed to do. But you’re telling me that in the case of keeping other human beings as slaves, he kept silent because he wanted man to have free will?!?

Sorry, like I said, it doesn’t wash.

(And he didn’t even stay silent on slavery. He specifically told man how to keep slaves, where to get them from, how much they could beat them and how to cheat to get them to remain as slaves for their whole lives).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sorry, you’re saying that god couldn’t have told man not to enslave other human beings? God told man all sorts of stupid stuff they couldn’t do so I’m afraid that doesn’t wash with me at all.

Don’t wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, don’t plant two kinds of seeds on the same vineyard, don’t eat shellfish, no trimming the sides of your beard or hair, death penalty if you work on a Sunday, don’t touch a woman when she’s on her period, don’t eat pork, no hunchbacks or dwarfs allowed to become a priest….I could go on.

These are all things that the god of the bible told man he was or wasn’t allowed to do. But you’re telling me that in the case of keeping other human beings as slaves, he kept silent because he wanted man to have free will?!?

Sorry, like I said, it doesn’t wash.

(And he didn’t even stay silent on slavery. He specifically told man how to keep slaves, where to get them from, how much they could beat them and how to cheat to get them to remain as slaves for their whole lives).

Your choice…

Btw…if you have no belief in a God then you can have no belief in the truth or otherwise of your closing bit in parenthesis.

ETA - I'm not going to get into any sort of theological debate about the existence of my God or not - I'm happy with the faith that I have that it helps me have the life that I have and that life enables me to help and support others - especially at their times of need.

 

[Fade and Die]

Good question, happy to answer it.

I would say I have made a reasonably good attempt to understand it. More than some people probably, certainly not as much as others. My investigations have mainly taken the form of listening to debates/lectures by and from people of both sides. Admittedly, most of these have centred around Christianity because being born and bred in the UK (and going to a C of E primary school) that's the one I'm most familiar with. But I have done a little bit of looking at other religions too and my position remains the same - I have never seen or been presented with any evidence which is sufficient for me to believe in a supernatural being or god.

The counter-questions I would pose to a theist who asks me this question is how about you? Have you studied all the religions before dismissing all but your own? What makes you think your beliefs are correct and theirs aren't?

The minimum best estimates of how many different deities humankind has worshipped since we appeared on this earth is 2,500. The highest estimate is around 50,000. Let's assume it's at the low end of the scale and take 2,500. Has the theist studied all 2,500 of them? Do you believe in Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec god of wind? Why not Inti, the Incan sun god? What's unbelievable about Ra, the Falcon-headed Egyptian god? Why not the Norse god Thor or the Babylonian god Marduk? (etc etc etc)

Someone on this thread has already alluded to this. But assuming the theist I'm talking to believes in a monotheistic religion, I have to point out that they and I are not so vastly different. They don't believe in 2,499 gods. I have simply gone one number higher than they have.

Regarding cherry picking quotes and extracts completely out of context, not really. For example, Christians often argue their god is timeless, all-loving and all-knowing. Yet the god of the bible endorses slavery. Repeatedly. He sets out rules and regulations about how to keep and treat slaves and how to get round the rules about freeing them. There is no other way to interpret that, despite the many incredibly inventive ways Christian apologists attempt to. If he was indeed all-loving, he wouldn't want any human enslaved. If he was timeless, he'd have known in biblical times that slavery would be viewed as disgusting 2,000 years later.

I'll respect your right to believe in and worship any god you like, but that respect doesn't include me glossing over the evil bits your deity of choice has participated in.

I believe that's why its called "Faith" Its based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

 

[Voyager EMH]

It took ages to paint all the stars on the black background to make us think there is something else out there

The stars are merely pinholes in a small black spherical curtain keeping us in, while the rest of the universe is a much bigger, brighter and better place that we will never see.