Neilds
Assistant Pro
Could be said for most religions. All claim to be peaceful, but some nasty things done in the name of religion.
Atheism and Theism
- Thread starter Don Barzini
- Start date
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
This is one of my major issues with belief in a religion.
When you examine anything offered as "evidence" for religion, there is literally nothing that is in any way approaching being credible. Yet so many people still believe in it because they just have "faith".
My question is always why? Why do you accept such a low standard of evidence for this particular issue? In every other major subject you could hold a view on, you will (or at least, should) require some good evidence to back up what you think. Why sre your views on religion exempt from this scrutiny?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
...and a lot of folk do bad things in no-ones name other than their own.
Neilds
Assistant Pro
Very true...and a lot of folk do bad things in no-ones name other than their own.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
How did astrophysicists and astronomers discover Black Holes? Because they looked and saw something happen in regions of the universe that they couldn't understand - there was no scientific explanation for the phenomenon but something was impacting stars and star systems that they could not see but was clearly real - they came to believe that something was there.
In time we have come to theorise and now accept what is going on with Black Holes...but back then it was simply 'we can see the impact something is having on what is in it's vicinity - we don't know what it is; we can't see it, and we can't describe it - but something must exist as we can see the impact it's having'.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
As a non-believer its just live and let live really so I probably have no grounds to even ask, but how do ppl adopt their religion/god?
I know a tiny minority convert but in the most part doesn’t the ‘believed in religion/god’ just so happen to be the same religion other ppl in the same household believe in, and stick with it for life?
Given the options, that seems to be a bit like belief in xyz is made on a ‘first come first served’ basis i.e whichever religion a person was exposed to first, is the one they just happen to believe in to the exclusion of all others and that it’s the right & only one for them
Maybe it doesn’t matter which religion you believe in since most of the mainstream ones preach a good way to live your life etc with a variance in ceremonies/prayers etc but essentially the same ‘be a good person’ principal. Maybe that could allow religious ppl to 'try out' or adopt other religions for a period of time to see what its like and how they feel etc
I know a tiny minority convert but in the most part doesn’t the ‘believed in religion/god’ just so happen to be the same religion other ppl in the same household believe in, and stick with it for life?
Given the options, that seems to be a bit like belief in xyz is made on a ‘first come first served’ basis i.e whichever religion a person was exposed to first, is the one they just happen to believe in to the exclusion of all others and that it’s the right & only one for them
Maybe it doesn’t matter which religion you believe in since most of the mainstream ones preach a good way to live your life etc with a variance in ceremonies/prayers etc but essentially the same ‘be a good person’ principal. Maybe that could allow religious ppl to 'try out' or adopt other religions for a period of time to see what its like and how they feel etc
rulefan
Tour Winner
Belief in a 'God' (or multiple 'Gods') is not necessarily the same as belonging/following/conforming to a religion.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Things that are carried out by people in the name of religion detracts from the religion itself.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
There are many ways into ‘finding’ a religion…and many do so through routes that require them to move away from doing everything for ’self’ and ‘self-interest’. And once on that journey they can find that having a ‘belief’ or a ‘faith’ in something other than themself helps hugely, and as it is ‘readily’ and ‘obviously’ available in every village and town in the country some give a religious God a try…and some stick with it.
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
How did astrophysicists and astronomers discover Black Holes? Because they looked and saw something happen in regions of the universe that they couldn't understand - there was no scientific explanation for the phenomenon but something was impacting stars and star systems that they could not see but was clearly real - they came to believe that something was there.
In time we have come to theorise and now accept what is going on with Black Holes...but back then it was simply 'we can see the impact something is having on what is in it's vicinity - we don't know what it is; we can't see it, and we can't describe it - but something must exist as we can see the impact it's having'.
Massive key difference: black holes were inferred from specific measurable phenomena, leading to falsifiable predictions and eventually direct observations.
Inferences about a god don’t follow the same scientific methodology or lead to testable predictions, which is why they remain in the realm of personal belief rather than evidence-based inference.
Until you can collect a jar of god, send it to a lab, and have scientists test it for godliness, it will remain so.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Rhetorical question, just putting it out there. If someone is terminally ill, and the doc’s say they’re incurable but they some how recover… Sometimes even the doc’s with all their experience and knowledge can’t explain it.
A miracle?
Those incurables that visit Lourdes…?
Though I’m a believer I do question miracles. Does the strength of someone’s faith turbo boost their system? Was it a misdiagnosis? Or was it a miracle?
As I said earlier in the thread, I’m brainwashed. I just accept…
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
Well…so you might well say…
Sure, as long as we’re clear it’s a personal belief rather than something supported by evidence in the way scientific theories are.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Do so called miracles depend on which 'god' you believe in or which religion you follow?
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
Some possible explanations of so-called “miracle” recoveries:
- Misdiagnosis/misinterpretation of results and scans. Overestimation of disease stage.
- Spontaneous remission (Well documented in certain cancers)
- Treatment effect beyond expectations
- Huge variations in individual biology, genetics and immune function.
- Reporting and confirmation bias. Stories of recovery shared widely, vast majority who don’t recover are less discussed.
I’m sure there are many more, all of which are infinitely more believable than a god intervening. And even if you do believe in such things, it begs the question as to why a god would interfere and save some people but not others.
You tell me… although I do occasionally wonder if some of the gods in different religions are actually the same god but the story went separate ways as it travelled the world.
Here’s another question to ponder though, again, I’m not fussed on what the answer might be. How on earth did the stories travel the world, with different texts in so many different countries being so similar, when travel and communication was so difficult?
Life is too short, and with so many good things to enjoy, without getting bogged down in unanswerable questions.
But isn’t that you trying to fit your answers/assumptions to the questions? I’m not saying you’re wrong or right. As per what I’ve just posted previously, it’s not something I waste my time on…
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Just for a bit of fun...
The science you cite as evidence proving the existence and nature of black holes feels to be based upon multiple hypotheses being postulated for the behaviour of celestial bodies as seen in the vicinity - with each hypothesis being disproved by scientific method and/or observation? However might I suggest that this approach leads to the conclusion that since every hypothesis has been disproven the only explanation must be that black holes must exist and be of such-and-such a nature.
Surely however the important caveat is that all the hypotheses tested are those that current scientific knowledge supports - and I think it is fair to suggest that current scientific knowledge does not provide the answer to every question we have about the universe - because we know the answer to everything is 42.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Robert Winston's book The Story of God that I mentioned earlier in this thread covers this...if you are interested it's an interesting (historical) read - one written by a world-renowned scientist who also has a very strong Jewish faith.
cliveb
Head Pro
I'd say the overwhelming majority of believers adopt their chosen religion through one of two means:
1. Most will be indoctrinated by their parents and/or teachers. Children are very susceptible to this, and many get all the way into adulthood without escaping.
2. Some adults have an epiphany of sorts. My feeling is that most who do so were in a psychologically fragile state at the time and easily persuaded to welcome any kind of comfort.
