Assisted Dying

[Billysboots]

I understand that it's horrible to see loved ones die in pain, I've been through it with my family but what I still can't get to grips with is 'who takes the life'? OK, someone who is compis mentis and fit enough to take a life-ending drink is one thing but what about all the cases where the person isn't. Take many of the cases discussed here, would a family member or a Nurse/Doctor administer the drugs, what protections would need to be in place to ensure it's not carried out for the wrong reasons. Like the death penalty for criminals it's one thing to be in favour of it but another to ensure it's right beyond doubt.

Im not making this point lightly as I understand the anguish of seeing a loved one die in pain but I know I couldn't press the button and I couldn't expect someone else to either. The comparison with animals is not a parallel in my opinion, I've broke my heart over dogs that we've had put down but it's not quite the same as your flesh and blood.

I understand what you’re saying but I’m not sure it’s actually that relevant. I say that because assisted suicide, which as far as I am aware is what’s on the table here, is just that. Assisting someone to take their own life, just like the process at Dignitas.

Someone else administering the drugs because the dying person is incapable of doing so themselves is euthanasia - something entirely different and not, to my knowledge, even on the agenda. Perhaps with good reason.

 

[RichA]

Good point, although for reasons I don't fully understand, I personally have fewer doubts about euthanasia of an unresponsive, soon to die person than I do about an elderly person potentially asking to have their life ended because they perceive themselves to be a burden. Nothing about this debate is simple.

 

[Billysboots]

Good point, although for reasons I don't fully understand, I personally have fewer doubts about euthanasia of an unresponsive, soon to die person than I do about an elderly person potentially asking to have their life ended because they perceive themselves to be a burden. Nothing about this debate is simple.

It certainly isn’t simple, that’s for sure!

 

[SocketRocket]

I understand what you’re saying but I’m not sure it’s actually that relevant. I say that because assisted suicide, which as far as I am aware is what’s on the table here, is just that. Assisting someone to take their own life, just like the process at Dignitas.

Someone else administering the drugs because the dying person is incapable of doing so themselves is euthanasia - something entirely different and not, to my knowledge, even on the agenda. Perhaps with good reason.

I see it as relevant to what some are saying here. A number of people have said that their loved ones died in pain and distress, some of these with dementia, some after strokes, some who are unconscious but obviously in pain and other debilitating conditions. The posts suggest these people shouldn't have to die in this way but my point is 'who would end their lives for them'. OK, I understand what you are saying regarding the person having to end their own life but I'm not sure that's what some others are saying.

 

[Robster59]

I understand that it's horrible to see loved ones die in pain, I've been through it with my family but what I still can't get to grips with is 'who takes the life'? OK, someone who is compis mentis and fit enough to take a life-ending drink is one thing but what about all the cases where the person isn't. Take many of the cases discussed here, would a family member or a Nurse/Doctor administer the drugs, what protections would need to be in place to ensure it's not carried out for the wrong reasons. Like the death penalty for criminals it's one thing to be in favour of it but another to ensure it's right beyond doubt.

Im not making this point lightly as I understand the anguish of seeing a loved one die in pain but I know I couldn't press the button and I couldn't expect someone else to either. The comparison with animals is not a parallel in my opinion, I've broke my heart over dogs that we've had put down but it's not quite the same as your flesh and blood.

My father was 92 and fully compos mentis and aware of his situation when he died. One of the last things he said to me was to look after my mother (who is still going at the age of 98). I remember Mum holding his hand the day before he died and repeating she loved him. He could squeeze her hand to show he could understand, but by that time he couldn't speak.

 

[Robster59]

I see it as relevant to what some are saying here. A number of people have said that their loved ones died in pain and distress, some of these with dementia, some after strokes, some who are unconscious but obviously in pain and other debilitating conditions. The posts suggest these people shouldn't have to die in this way but my point is 'who would end their lives for them'. OK, I understand what you are saying regarding the person having to end their own life but I'm not sure that's what some others are saying.

If I'm being brutally honest. If, at that time, I could have eased my Father's suffering, I would. But the law does not permit that, so I couldn't.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I see it as relevant to what some are saying here. A number of people have said that their loved ones died in pain and distress, some of these with dementia, some after strokes, some who are unconscious but obviously in pain and other debilitating conditions. The posts suggest these people shouldn't have to die in this way but my point is 'who would end their lives for them'. OK, I understand what you are saying regarding the person having to end their own life but I'm not sure that's what some others are saying.

Whoever the law decides can assist those terminally ill, but the choice is entirely that of the terminally ill person, not the family;

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ebates-assisted-dying-bill-at-second-reading/

Members of the Lords debated the main principles and purpose of the Assisted Dying Bill during second reading, on Friday 22 October.
The Assisted Dying Bill seeks to enable adults who are terminally ill to be provided at their request with specified assistance to end their own life.

In a lot of the cases people have mentioned, where the person was not able to communicate their wishes, I believe the suffering would unfortunately have to continue, as it would in my mother's case.

 

[chrisd]

I may be totally wrong but feel that assisted dying has been around for a long time. My father in law was really bad in hospital some years back and due to have a leg amputation due to diabetes, he seemed to go down hill very quickly and was on much stronger doses of morphine and such like before surgery. Thankfully he passed away before the surgery

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I understand that it's horrible to see loved ones die in pain, I've been through it with my family but what I still can't get to grips with is 'who takes the life'? OK, someone who is compis mentis and fit enough to take a life-ending drink is one thing but what about all the cases where the person isn't. Take many of the cases discussed here, would a family member or a Nurse/Doctor administer the drugs, what protections would need to be in place to ensure it's not carried out for the wrong reasons. Like the death penalty for criminals it's one thing to be in favour of it but another to ensure it's right beyond doubt.

Im not making this point lightly as I understand the anguish of seeing a loved one die in pain but I know I couldn't press the button and I couldn't expect someone else to either. The comparison with animals is not a parallel in my opinion, I've broke my heart over dogs that we've had put down but it's not quite the same as your flesh and blood.

I cannot accept your point that while it is right and proper and compassionate to end someone's awful pain, ( that is your view is it?) , but it isn't something a Dr would be prepared to do. There have been many instances , not acknowledged for obvious reasons, where Drs have ended such lives out of compassion.
Stories from warfare, where terribly injured mates have been shot by compassionate soldiers, etc.
No one ever wants there to be a circumstance where a loved one needs such a compassionate ending, but I think you are overly concerned about a Drs apprehension of administering the final act of mercy, if all safeguarding parameters have been met.
You have again brought up the spectre of abuse of the system, where people are being unnecessarily 'knocked off' . But you know that many have accepted here that modern technology and minutely examined legislation would ensure that no Dr would be in a dangerous ambiguous situation.
Parameters such as,
Properly certified painful condition with no hope of alleviation: patient of certified sound mind making unequivocal wishes known ( video record , made in required conditions). Application for permission for assisted dying made to magistrate who , if agrees, issues the necessary document. Etc

It is not beyond the ken of Parliament to make good enough laws

So-- it's a no brainier, if compassion is allowed to override dogma

 

[SocketRocket]

I cannot accept your point that while it is right and proper and compassionate to end someone's awful pain, ( that is your view is it?) , but it isn't something a Dr would be prepared to do. There have been many instances , not acknowledged for obvious reasons, where Drs have ended such lives out of compassion.
Stories from warfare, where terribly injured mates have been shot by compassionate soldiers, etc.
No one ever wants there to be a circumstance where a loved one needs such a compassionate ending, but I think you are overly concerned about a Drs apprehension of administering the final act of mercy, if all safeguarding parameters have been met.
You have again brought up the spectre of abuse of the system, where people are being unnecessarily 'knocked off' . But you know that many have accepted here that modern technology and minutely examined legislation would ensure that no Dr would be in a dangerous ambiguous situation.
Parameters such as,
Properly certified painful condition with no hope of alleviation: patient of certified sound mind making unequivocal wishes known ( video record , made in required conditions). Application for permission for assisted dying made to magistrate who , if agrees, issues the necessary document. Etc

It is not beyond the ken of Parliament to make good enough laws

So-- it's a no brainier, if compassion is allowed to override dogma

What happens on a battlefield or unofficially by a Doctor is nothing to do with what I've said. My point or question was, is it ethically right for someone with no decent quality of life and unable to end it themselves to have life ending drugs administered by someone else legally. As I have pointed out a few times, some have mentioned loved ones with dementure or loss of movement who were in pain and distress having their lives ended. I can understand fully their distress in seeing someone you love suffering, I've been there myself. I guess my question is 'Who would end their lives legally and would it be morally acceptable'.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

What happens on a battlefield or unofficially by a Doctor is nothing to do with what I've said. My point or question was, is it ethically right for someone with no decent quality of life and unable to end it themselves to have life ending drugs administered by someone else legally. As I have pointed out a few times, some have mentioned loved ones with dementure or loss of movement who were in pain and distress having their lives ended. I can understand fully their distress in seeing someone you love suffering, I've been there myself. I guess my question is 'Who would end their lives legally and would it be morally acceptable'.

I think I answered that. Most Drs , with the laws permission and safeguards, would do so, I believe.
They would see it as ending a painful intolerable death.
Of course, it's morally acceptable. As armed forces and Police may have to.
Descartes said, (wtte )
"All actions are in themselves indifferent. What makes them good or evil is the motive."

 

[SocketRocket]

I think I answered that. Most Drs , with the laws permission and safeguards, would do so, I believe.
They would see it as ending a painful intolerable death.
Of course, it's morally acceptable. As armed forces and Police may have to.
Descartes said, (wtte )
"All actions are in themselves indifferent. What makes them good or evil is the motive."

I just have to disagree, I don't believe they would be prepared to end life. The motive may be good but the act unethical.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I just have to disagree, I don't believe they would be prepared to end life. The motive may be good but the act unethical.

So, what people under what circumstances are you prepared to say can end someone's life without it being unethical?
Soldiers?
Police officers?
Doctors?
Others?

Or".."."..........Nobody?

 

[Blue in Munich]

So, what people under what circumstances are you prepared to say can end someone's life without it being unethical?
Soldiers?
Police officers?
Doctors?
Others?

Or".."."..........Nobody?

The only person that has the right to say their life can be ended is the person whose life is being ended; no one else.

Assisted dying should only help those who are sufficiently compos mentis to make their wishes to end their life known at that time or, if the legislature permits, who have made a legal living will stating the circumstances under which they would wish their life to be ended. The lawyers, doctors and judges would then have to decide if those criteria have been met and can then arrange for the assisted dying to take place.

But no one gets to play God and decide for someone that their life will be ended.

 

[Billysboots]

So, what people under what circumstances are you prepared to say can end someone's life without it being unethical?
Soldiers?
Police officers?
Doctors?
Others?

Or".."."..........Nobody?

Hmmm. Police officers need to be struck straight off that list. Some can’t even be trusted to pay the going rate for a packet of Jaffa Cakes ?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

The only person that has the right to say their life can be ended is the person whose life is being ended; no one else.

Assisted dying should only help those who are sufficiently compos mentis to make their wishes to end their life known at that time or, if the legislature permits, who have made a legal living will stating the circumstances under which they would wish their life to be ended. The lawyers, doctors and judges would then have to decide if those criteria have been met and can then arrange for the assisted dying to take place.

But no one gets to play God and decide for someone that their life will be ended.

Exactly right. . Because you are replying to my post, I don't know if you are under the impression that I think differently from what you have posted?

I don't.

If you read my previous posts I am advocating exactly what you have written.

My answer to SR ( which your post quoted) was concerning my understanding of SR position, ( that it was unethical for someone to physically end someone else's life , in any circumstance, including a Dr administering a life ending drug.) and I was asking him to comment on circumstances where some people do end other person's lives.

 

[SocketRocket]

So, what people under what circumstances are you prepared to say can end someone's life without it being unethical?
Soldiers?
Police officers?
Doctors?
Others?

Or".."."..........Nobody?

Only themselves if they are capable.

I don't believe any other person should end another's life and I'm certain the medical profession would not do it ethically.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Whoever the law decides can assist those terminally ill, but the choice is entirely that of the terminally ill person, not the family;

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ebates-assisted-dying-bill-at-second-reading/

Members of the Lords debated the main principles and purpose of the Assisted Dying Bill during second reading, on Friday 22 October.
The Assisted Dying Bill seeks to enable adults who are terminally ill to be provided at their request with specified assistance to end their own life.

In a lot of the cases people have mentioned, where the person was not able to communicate their wishes, I believe the suffering would unfortunately have to continue, as it would in my mother's case.

Unless they had made a "living will" ( is it called?) where they indicate their wishes , if ever they became in the situation you describe in last paragraph ?
This living will could be a sworn document, the taking of which could be recorded on video- easily done these days. However done, it should be very clear what the instructions of the person making it are.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Only themselves if they are capable.

I don't believe any other person should end another's life and I'm certain the medical profession would not do it ethically.

You amaze me! Let's be clear that we are talking about the same things.
IF I misunderstand you, I apologise, but your words are quite clear.
You say..." I don't believe any.......another's life"
In any circumstances? Not just people who are ill, but in any circumstances your sentence above is what you mean?

You do realise that this means you disapprove of our Armed forces maybe having to kill enemies: armed police officers having to kill criminals killing or about to kill innocent citizens?
Because you believe it is unethical for one human to kill another in any circumstance?

If it weren't for the fact that some are ( and risked and lost, their life doing it) , you and we , wouldn't be here able to express that view, ?

 

[SocketRocket]

You amaze me! Let's be clear that we are talking about the same things.
IF I misunderstand you, I apologise, but your words are quite clear.
You say..." I don't believe any.......another's life"
In any circumstances? Not just people who are ill, but in any circumstances your sentence above is what you mean?

You do realise that this means you disapprove of our Armed forces maybe having to kill enemies: armed police officers having to kill criminals killing or about to kill innocent citizens?
Because you believe it is unethical for one human to kill another in any circumstance?

If it weren't for the fact that some are ( and risked and lost, their life doing it) , you and we , wouldn't be here able to express that view, ?

I can only return the comment that you amaze me. The subject under discussion is regarding assisted suicide, I have not made or intended to make any comments regarding the police, armed services or anything else, if I intended it to cover these matters I would have made it clear that's what I meant.

To clarify again:
In relation to assisted suicide, I am not against someone who is able to end their own life doing so under controlled conditions when their quality of life is so bad and the legal conditions that apply are met.

I have also asked the question regarding people who due to their poor state of health couldn't physically or mentally carry out the act of taking a lethal end of life medication, I don't think another person should end their life and further I don't believe the medical professional bodies would agree to them doing it.

That's it, please don't read into my comments anything beyond what I've stated.