ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Took me a while to figure that one out! At least he didn't say he thought it was clear cut. I've always fancied being a lawyer & I reckon I could make a good case for it in court.
Asking for advice
- Thread starter ventura
- Start date
Took me a while to figure that one out! At least he didn't say he thought it was clear cut. I've always fancied being a lawyer & I reckon I could make a good case for it in court.
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
That is due to the improper use of the word "advise." People use it today to convey the simple phrase of bygone days "told." ("I told him he was swinging improperly.") For some reason "advise" sounds more important and official so it has fallen into use. It does not mean advice as used in the rules.
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Foxholer
Blackballed
Not 'improper', so much as changing/evolving. I blame you (American) lot for much of it with sales patter! I once saw an example of such language describing, in about 200 words of flowery language, what seemed like a complicated connecting device, invoiced (to DoD) at $4000 per item. Turned out to be a standard nut and bolt!!
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atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
I don't know what happened to my long post on language. I will just post this link to a show i liked in the 80s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FtSUPAM-uA&list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
In this country a standard nut and bolt is Sarah Palin and John McCain. :ears:Turned out to be a standard nut and bolt!!
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Really interesting discussion.
There is a fine line and we need to think about the purpose of the rule. We know from decision 8-1/8 Comment About Club Selection After Stroke that a a casual remark is not regarded as advice.
In my mind saying "That went exactly where you were aiming" is not really advice and more like a casual remark. It doesn't say the player should or shouldn't do anything specific and as as others have noted it is a non-judgemental statement of fact. It is not a "counsel or suggestion" and in my view is materially different to saying, "Your problem is you are lining up incorrectly" or, "You are lining up too far to the left" which I think would be advice.
This is an area of the rules where I think there is some degree of "interpretation". I also think based on Decision 8-1/8 there is also an element of intent.
Which of these might be "advice"?
To be honest I'm not really sure about 1 and 2. I would guess though that many of us would be a bit a shocked if after a comment like those the player said "Thanks and by the way that's a 2 shot penalty to you"!
I think this would be great topic for the Rules section in the mag particularly in the light of discussions about saying "take your time" when someone is about to tap in a short putt.
There is a fine line and we need to think about the purpose of the rule. We know from decision 8-1/8 Comment About Club Selection After Stroke that a a casual remark is not regarded as advice.
In my mind saying "That went exactly where you were aiming" is not really advice and more like a casual remark. It doesn't say the player should or shouldn't do anything specific and as as others have noted it is a non-judgemental statement of fact. It is not a "counsel or suggestion" and in my view is materially different to saying, "Your problem is you are lining up incorrectly" or, "You are lining up too far to the left" which I think would be advice.
This is an area of the rules where I think there is some degree of "interpretation". I also think based on Decision 8-1/8 there is also an element of intent.
Which of these might be "advice"?
1. "Great swing, lovely tempo, keep swinging like that today and you'll have a great round".
2. "You have been driving really well today, it's the last hole, make sure you keep your tempo on this one"
3. "You are swinging too fast. You need to slow it down."
2. "You have been driving really well today, it's the last hole, make sure you keep your tempo on this one"
3. "You are swinging too fast. You need to slow it down."
To be honest I'm not really sure about 1 and 2. I would guess though that many of us would be a bit a shocked if after a comment like those the player said "Thanks and by the way that's a 2 shot penalty to you"!
I think this would be great topic for the Rules section in the mag particularly in the light of discussions about saying "take your time" when someone is about to tap in a short putt.
freddielong
Tour Winner
I think the problem that this thread has highlighted is that it is possible to give advice if you are careful with the language you use with being pulled up for it, that is why in my opinion almost all of it would not be allowed by the R&A.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Freddie, a remark made to a fellow competitor will either be advice in terms of the Rules, or not. Not being pulled up for saying something that was advice doesn't change the status of what was said. It is still advice.
That pedantic quibble apart, I don't doubt that statements 2 and 3 that Mashie put forward are advice. It would he harsh indeed to rule that a sporting encouragement to a fellow competitor like the first one was advice. It is so generalised, amounting in my mind to no more than a conditional and glaringly obvious "if you swing well, you will play well" without saying anything in particular about how to swing well.
That pedantic quibble apart, I don't doubt that statements 2 and 3 that Mashie put forward are advice. It would he harsh indeed to rule that a sporting encouragement to a fellow competitor like the first one was advice. It is so generalised, amounting in my mind to no more than a conditional and glaringly obvious "if you swing well, you will play well" without saying anything in particular about how to swing well.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Re reading my earlier post I think it lost something in editing. Example 3 is maybe too obvious.
Something like
"That was a really quick swing, you usually hit the ball better when you swing more slowly"
might be a bit more border line.
Something like
"That was a really quick swing, you usually hit the ball better when you swing more slowly"
might be a bit more border line.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
If this comment was made to by a FC following me hitting the ball well left of 'the line' - I could easily imagine responding "Yes I know - I just hit it wrong - I meant to fade the shot but just hit it straight"
But if I asked a FC if I was aiming to the left that seems to me to be a different kettle of fish.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Don't think whatever you say in reply to your FC makes a difference, it's still advice in my book.
Baldy Bouncer
Blackballed
Simple solution.............keep your trap shut!!!!!:thup:
CheltenhamHacker
Journeyman Pro
That doesn't sound border line to me, sounds flat out like advice!
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Copy of e mail received today from the R & A
"Hi Bill,
Apologies, I misunderstood which examples you were talking about.
I have discussed your query below further with my colleagues and I have to admit that they are in agreement with you that this type of statement would constitute as being advice. Going back to the principles in my previous e-mail below, saying to a player, ‘you aimed too far left’, or ‘that’s where you were aiming’ is offering an opinion which could influence a player in his method of making a stroke and this would therefore be a breach of Rule 8-1.
Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience.
Kind Regards
Claire"
I referred her to this thread & she initially answered the wrong question.
This answer is in direct contradiction to the answer I got from the same person at the R & A the last time I raised exactly the same question in March, only this time she has discussed it with her (senior?) colleagues.
"Hi Bill,
Apologies, I misunderstood which examples you were talking about.
I have discussed your query below further with my colleagues and I have to admit that they are in agreement with you that this type of statement would constitute as being advice. Going back to the principles in my previous e-mail below, saying to a player, ‘you aimed too far left’, or ‘that’s where you were aiming’ is offering an opinion which could influence a player in his method of making a stroke and this would therefore be a breach of Rule 8-1.
Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience.
Kind Regards
Claire"
I referred her to this thread & she initially answered the wrong question.
This answer is in direct contradiction to the answer I got from the same person at the R & A the last time I raised exactly the same question in March, only this time she has discussed it with her (senior?) colleagues.
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Baldy Bouncer
Blackballed
1 - 0 to the maninblack:thup::whoo:
That bit is concerning.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
As they say in pantomime "Oh yes it was!"
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Or whoever gave the advice didn't!
I was absolutely 100% convinced they were wrong. I firmly believe that the answer was given without proper consideration.
Just as an aside to this debate, I play in a lot of interclub Foxes and Seniors matches. Often the home team players will point out features of the hole and give some advice on how to play it, particularly for visiting players who have not played the course before. OK they are not qualifiers and giving this advice seems only polite, but is this in breech of rule 8-1? 
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
Just as an aside to this debate, I play in a lot of interclub Foxes and Seniors matches. Often the home team players will point out features of the hole and give some advice on how to play it, particularly for visiting players who have not played the course before. OK they are not qualifiers and giving this advice seems only polite, but is this in breech of rule 8-1?
"The fairway slopes from left to right here" Fact, not advice.
"You need to hit it well over to the left here" Telling the player how to play the shot, advice.
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