Asking for advice

[delc]

See post no. 36, seems like conflicting info. What I meant was my query was answered by an R & A employee who, for all I know could have been quite junior. If the question had arisen as a result of something that happened on the European Tour I think it would have been decided by people with more authority. I just can't see that telling someone something that improves their play for the rest of the round is not advice. The answer re. over swinging seems to confirm this.

What question did you ask? A playing partner and either of your caddies can give coaching advice, but an opponent or fellow competitor can't.

 

[ManinBlack]

What question did you ask? A playing partner and either of your caddies can give coaching advice, but an opponent or fellow competitor can't.

I asked if a FC saying "that was exactly where you were aiming" was advice. The answer I got was "no". I've still got the e mails.

 

[ManinBlack]

The R&A staff who answer queries are not 'junior' staff. They have full authority to make rulings. If there anything that might be contentious, they will discuss it internally and in all probability with the USGA also.

I have one that is in just that situation at the moment.

In your case the statement was factual information. It wasn't an opinion.

I don't know how the decision making process works. I do know that if the query is about something that actually happened in competition play the question has to come from an official of the club. If it is just a general query to settle an argument ( which I lost!) they will accept the question from anyone. Just wondered if the former kind of decision received more scrutiny.

 

[rulefan]

Just wondered if the former kind of decision received more scrutiny.

No, the same (few) staff members answer all questions.

 

[Colin L]

See post no. 36, seems like conflicting info. What I meant was my query was answered by an R & A employee who, for all I know could have been quite junior. If the question had arisen as a result of something that happened on the European Tour I think it would have been decided by people with more authority. I just can't see that telling someone something that improves their play for the rest of the round is not advice. The answer re. over swinging seems to confirm this.

Why bother taking up the time of the R&A asking for a ruling if you are not prepared to accept the ruling but prefer to make assumptions about the people making the ruling?

 

[ManinBlack]

No, the same (few) staff members answer all questions.

Thank you, it was something I didn't know.

 

[ManinBlack]

Why bother taking up the time of the R&A asking for a ruling if you are not prepared to accept the ruling but prefer to make assumptions about the people making the ruling?

It's not that I don't accept it, I just have trouble understanding it. Telling someone he's consistently aiming incorrectly looks to me to be "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke", obviously subsequent play, in the same way as telling someone he is overswinging affects his subsequent play and there is a decision, apparently, which says this is against the rules. I struggle to see the difference, I really do. Someone said earlier that point out a player's aim is a statement of fact, but so is pointing out over swinging.

I remember, a long time ago, being told by a mate I was having a friendly game with, at Moortown as it happens I remember it that well, that all my shots were going left because I was aiming left. After that I paid particular attention to my lining up and hit it much straighter. Someone please, please tell me how this is not " advice".

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Someone said earlier that point out a player's aim is a statement of fact, but so is pointing out over swinging.

No it isn't.

Someone "overswinging" to person A, could be "underswinging" to person B. It's a subjective thing.

 

[Colin L]

I would venture that "the ball went exactly where you were aiming" is only a statement of fact because the words do not imply that there was anything wrong in that - the opposite really. They apply equally to putting a ball down straight down the middle because you were aiming that way as to putting a ball way out left or right because that's where you were aiming. Wherever the ball goes, it is just a compliment like "Good shot" to be told your ball goes where you are aiming. You infer from that for your further play in that round that you should aim where you want the ball to go? That is news to you? You are only going to start doing that because another player implied it? I don't think so.

In contrast, the very word "overswinging" carries the meaning of something you shouldn't be doing, and the implication that you would be better off not doing it. It is an invitation to change, if you like.

 

[Duckster]

I would venture that "the ball went exactly where you were aiming" is only a statement of fact because the words do not imply that there was anything wrong in that - the opposite really. They apply equally to putting a ball down straight down the middle because you were aiming that way as to putting a ball way out left or right because that's where you were aiming. Wherever the ball goes, it is just a compliment like "Good shot" to be told your ball goes where you are aiming. You infer from that for your further play in that round that you should aim where you want the ball to go? That is news to you? You are only going to start doing that because another player implied it? I don't think so.

In contrast, the very word "overswinging" carries the meaning of something you shouldn't be doing, and the implication that you would be better off not doing it. It is an invitation to change, if you like.

Now that make sense. "You were aiming that way" is a statement of fact. "You were over-swinging" is subjective and therefore advice.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's not that I don't accept it, I just have trouble understanding it. Telling someone he's consistently aiming incorrectly looks to me to be "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke", obviously subsequent play, in the same way as telling someone he is overswinging affects his subsequent play and there is a decision, apparently, which says this is against the rules. I struggle to see the difference, I really do. Someone said earlier that point out a player's aim is a statement of fact, but so is pointing out over swinging.

I remember, a long time ago, being told by a mate I was having a friendly game with, at Moortown as it happens I remember it that well, that all my shots were going left because I was aiming left. After that I paid particular attention to my lining up and hit it much straighter. Someone please, please tell me how this is not " advice".

..it seems that where a player was aiming when he played his shot is public knowledge - even although for most of us our 'public' may be 1-3 others. If he is told 'you hit the ball where you were aiming' that seems fine. It is up to the player to decide then what he should do for subsequent shots.

If the player prior to playing his next shot sets up and asks 'am I aiming where I should' I can see that when others answer one way or the other that then becomes advice - both because the advice tells him where he should be aiming and whether or not he is in fact aiming there.

On 'over-swinging'. If a FC asks after a shot 'did I overswing' then yes I can tell a FC then he 'overswung' - again he has then to decide himself what to do about it next shot. However if (somehow) I was to stop the player in mid-swing to tell he he was in the process of 'overswinging' then that would be advice.

 

[ManinBlack]

On 'over-swinging'. If a FC asks after a shot 'did I overswing' then yes I can tell a FC then he 'overswung' - again he has then to decide himself what to do about it next shot. However if (somehow) I was to stop the player in mid-swing to tell he he was in the process of 'overswinging' then that would be advice.

Not according to post 34

"Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?

A. Yes"

 

[cliveb]

In contrast, the very word "overswinging" carries the meaning of something you shouldn't be doing, and the implication that you would be better off not doing it. It is an invitation to change, if you like.

So if a player tells a FC that the top of his backswing ends up with the club pointing down towards the ground at an angle of 30 degrees past horizontal, is that now a statement of fact rather than advice?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

On 'over-swinging'. If a FC asks after a shot 'did I overswing' then yes I can tell a FC then he 'overswung' - again he has then to decide himself what to do about it next shot. However if (somehow) I was to stop the player in mid-swing to tell he he was in the process of 'overswinging' then that would be advice.

As per the above posts, I disagree. to "over" do something is subjective, and hence always advice.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

So if a player tells a FC that the top of his backswing ends up with the club pointing down towards the ground at an angle of 30 degrees past horizontal, is that now a statement of fact rather than advice?

By my understanding, that would be fine. You aren't commenting on whether or not this is good or bad, purely passing on historical factual information.

 

[ManinBlack]

By my understanding, that would be fine. You aren't commenting on whether or not this is good or bad, purely passing on historical factual information.

But it's factual information that the FC may not be aware of and may influence the way he plays in future i.e. "advice". Passing on factual information can be construed as "advising" e.g. "I advised him that he was swinging 30 degrees past the horizontal"

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not according to post 34

"Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?

A. Yes"

OK - will have to bear that in mind as one of my buddies is very prone to rocking and overswinging

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

But it's factual information that the FC may not be aware of and may influence the way he plays in future i.e. "advice". Passing on factual information can be construed as "advising" e.g. "I advised him that he was swinging 30 degrees past the horizontal"

But surely that is with everything. Hence the differentiation between saying "the pin is on the right", and "the pin is on the right, so I would hit it onto the left and use the bank".

By saying exactly what they did "30* past the horizontal", you informed them of a fact. By saying overswinging, you are advising them to swing less. For all you know, they may want to be 45* past the horizontal!

 

[ManinBlack]

But surely that is with everything. Hence the differentiation between saying "the pin is on the right", and "the pin is on the right, so I would hit it onto the left and use the bank".

By saying exactly what they did "30* past the horizontal", you informed them of a fact. By saying overswinging, you are advising them to swing less. For all you know, they may want to be 45* past the horizontal!

I'm sorry, but I really think any information given about a FC's swing, as opposed to the information about the course, is "advice" because the information can be used to improve his play during the round. all the stuff that isn't "advice" is information that the player could obtain independently elsewhere.

We need some lawyers on the case! Any about?

 

[Foxholer]

I'm sorry, but I really think any information given about a FC's swing, as opposed to the information about the course, is "advice" because the information can be used to improve his play during the round. all the stuff that isn't "advice" is information that the player could obtain independently elsewhere.

We need some lawyers on the case! Any about?

Er, I think there is one that has already posted in this thread! Think American Literature! Or Gregory Peck if that's too obscure for Brits!