Asking for advice

[nemicu]

Simply stating facts such as 'the green slopes front to back', or 'is 2-tiered' is not advice in my book!

Rule 8 is pretty self explanatory in what advice (including line of play) may be asked. "Best" lines are clearly advice and not information. Similarly, "best" landing areas or slopes is "advice" rather than information.

Sorry if it wasn't clear enough grammatically. "Best" was also meant apply to the noun "slope" as well. Meaning the best slope AND/OR the best landing area. Slopes, as you correct pointed out are a matter of relative information, but the "best" one to take or line on it are clearly advice.
Far be it from me to upset the pernickety police.

 

[delc]

I'm playing in a competition this week at a course I've not played before. I'm playing with a member who knows the course but what can I ask during the round?

I think location of hazards and distances are fine but what about blind tee shots? Can I ask what the best line is or what to aim at in the distance, best side of fairway to be at etc.?

What about approaches to greens, can I ask about slopes as it is a fact? But can't ask best landing area?

Thanks for any help.

From the R&A quick guide to the Rules of Golf:

During the round:

•don’t ask for “advice” from anyone except your partner (i.e. a player on your side) or your caddies; don’t give advice to anyone except your partner; you may ask for information on the Rules, distances and the position of hazards, the flagstick, etc. (Rule 8-1)

Definition of advice:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

From the R&A quick guide to the Rules of Golf:

During the round:

•don’t ask for “advice” from anyone except your partner (i.e. a player on your side) or your caddies; don’t give advice to anyone except your partner; you may ask for information on the Rules, distances and the position of hazards, the flagstick, etc. (Rule 8-1)

Definition of advice:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

After 20 replies to the OP already, you've really cleared that up Del. What would we do if you weren't here eh!

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry if it wasn't clear enough grammatically. "Best" was also meant apply to the noun "slope" as well. Meaning the best slope AND/OR the best landing area. Slopes, as you correct pointed out are a matter of relative information, but the "best" one to take or line on it are clearly advice.
Far be it from me to upset the pernickety police.

Just shows how 'interpretation' can come up with significantly different answers! (Mathematically, you were intending the Distributive interpretation to apply to the phrase while I was applying a non-Distributive one!)

I'm always impressed with how well/carefully written the RsoG are! Absolutely crucial to read them absolutely literally rather than trying to interpret them. In this, Advice, area it's the determination of what is/is not advice that causes any difficulty.

 

[ManinBlack]

From the R&A quick guide to the Rules of Golf:

During the round:

•don’t ask for “advice” from anyone except your partner (i.e. a player on your side) or your caddies; don’t give advice to anyone except your partner; you may ask for information on the Rules, distances and the position of hazards, the flagstick, etc. (Rule 8-1)

Definition of advice:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

I queried an application of this rule with the R & A and I'm not sure I agree with the answer. A player hits his shot well left of the target. FC says " that's exactly where you were aiming" On realising this, the player from then on pays attention to his lining up and plays a blinder. Is this "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke"? According to the R & A it isn't but I can't see how it's not when it influences every subsequent shot that the player makes.

 

[Foxholer]

I queried an application of this rule with the R & A and I'm not sure I agree with the answer. A player hits his shot well left of the target. FC says " that's exactly where you were aiming" On realising this, the player from then on pays attention to his lining up and plays a blinder. Is this "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke"? According to the R & A it isn't but I can't see how it's not when it influences every subsequent shot that the player makes.

I believe your 'every subsequent shot' is an interpretation of 'his play'! I believe the Rule is only referring to a single situation/stroke.

Similar logic applies to how it's not (a request for) advice asking/answering the question 'What club did you hit there' as you wander towards the hole, but it is if asked before you play the shot.

 

[atticusfinch]

I queried an application of this rule with the R & A and I'm not sure I agree with the answer. A player hits his shot well left of the target. FC says " that's exactly where you were aiming" On realising this, the player from then on pays attention to his lining up and plays a blinder. Is this "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke"? According to the R & A it isn't but I can't see how it's not when it influences every subsequent shot that the player makes.

When you disagree with the people who wrote the rule on their interpretation of it it is time to change your way of thinking.

 

[atticusfinch]

What most people mean by "interpretation of a rule" is actually how the facts of a case are applied against the rule. The meaning of the rule is usually clear and it needs no "interpretation." what is not always clear is how the facts fit.

 

[Foxholer]

Remember too that a Player can be standing beside 2 balls, both of which, according to the RoG, are Lost!

 

[BillyBeardie]

Speaking from experience the last thing I want to hear is someone telling me where I'm aiming - I know that my feet always point to the right of the target and don't need someone who's never played with me before telling me that as though it's the reason I missed that way.

Comments as to what someone is or isn't doing "correctly" (or perceived to be doing correctly) with their swing are best kept to non-competitive rounds or to clubhouse conversation. Regardless of the rule and interpretation unsolicited comments such as this, no matter what the intent, are inappropriate in a competitive environment.

That makes me sound really grumpy but I consider it VERY bad manners.

 

[Foxholer]

Speaking from experience the last thing I want to hear is someone telling me where I'm aiming - I know that my feet always point to the right of the target and don't need someone who's never played with me before telling me that as though it's the reason I missed that way.

Comments as to what someone is or isn't doing "correctly" (or perceived to be doing correctly) with their swing are best kept to non-competitive rounds or to clubhouse conversation. Regardless of the rule and interpretation unsolicited comments such as this, no matter what the intent, are inappropriate in a competitive environment.

That makes me sound really grumpy but I consider it VERY bad manners.

Entirely reasonable attitude imo!

 

[ManinBlack]

When you disagree with the people who wrote the rule on their interpretation of it it is time to change your way of thinking.

Well, you just wonder with what authority they're speaking. Just seems very much like unsolicited advice.

 

[ManinBlack]

Speaking from experience the last thing I want to hear is someone telling me where I'm aiming - I know that my feet always point to the right of the target and don't need someone who's never played with me before telling me that as though it's the reason I missed that way.

Comments as to what someone is or isn't doing "correctly" (or perceived to be doing correctly) with their swing are best kept to non-competitive rounds or to clubhouse conversation. Regardless of the rule and interpretation unsolicited comments such as this, no matter what the intent, are inappropriate in a competitive environment.

That makes me sound really grumpy but I consider it VERY bad manners.

Agreed. I would never offer advice about anything without being asked. Wish my wife felt the same.

 

[delc]

I queried an application of this rule with the R & A and I'm not sure I agree with the answer. A player hits his shot well left of the target. FC says " that's exactly where you were aiming" On realising this, the player from then on pays attention to his lining up and plays a blinder. Is this "advice that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke"? According to the R & A it isn't but I can't see how it's not when it influences every subsequent shot that the player makes.

I've always understood that you should not give coaching advice to an opponent or fellow competitor during a stipulated round, or ask for coaching advice from him/her. This seems to be confirmed by Decision 8-1/13:

Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?

A. Yes

 

[super hans]

I've always understood that you should not give coaching advice to an opponent or fellow competitor during a stipulated round, or ask for coaching advice from him/her. This seems to be confirmed by Decision 8-1/13:

Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?

A. Yes

spookily, my FC said to me today during our Wednesday medal, "I noticed during last weeks medal you were over swinging your driver, you've got a much better tempo today, and your drives are much more straight." Is this an observation and indirect advice?

 

[ManinBlack]

I've always understood that you should not give coaching advice to an opponent or fellow competitor during a stipulated round, or ask for coaching advice from him/her. This seems to be confirmed by Decision 8-1/13:

Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?

A. Yes

Over swinging, aiming left, what's the difference?

 

[atticusfinch]

Well, you just wonder with what authority they're speaking. Just seems very much like unsolicited advice.

I can't imagine an authority higher than the person who wrote the rule. It's like having King John and the barons tell you what the Magna Carta means.

My snippy comment was serious, If that looks like advice to you but the R&A says it is not, that means you do not have a full grasp of what the term means.

 

[ManinBlack]

I can't imagine an authority higher than the person who wrote the rule. It's like having King John and the barons tell you what the Magna Carta means.

My snippy comment was serious, If that looks like advice to you but the R&A says it is not, that means you do not have a full grasp of what the term means.

See post no. 36, seems like conflicting info. What I meant was my query was answered by an R & A employee who, for all I know could have been quite junior. If the question had arisen as a result of something that happened on the European Tour I think it would have been decided by people with more authority. I just can't see that telling someone something that improves their play for the rest of the round is not advice. The answer re. over swinging seems to confirm this.

 

[atticusfinch]

I don't want to make too fine a point of it but when I get seemingly conflicting answers from the RBs my first inclination is that they are making a distinction I cannot see and i try to figure it out. I am the one making a mistake, not them.

In this case the conflict is between a statement "you are overswinging" vs "that ball went where you were aiming." The former is clearly a suggestion that he should adjust the swing. The latter is an observation of a fact. It's a close call admittedly, but that is a difference I see.

 

[rulefan]

R & A employee who, for all I know could have been quite junior.

The R&A staff who answer queries are not 'junior' staff. They have full authority to make rulings. If there anything that might be contentious, they will discuss it internally and in all probability with the USGA also.

I have one that is in just that situation at the moment.

In your case the statement was factual information. It wasn't an opinion.