rosecott
Money List Winner
And they play in the same four-ball in every comp.
Are you cheating if you don't know the rules?
- Thread starter JustOne
- Start date
And they play in the same four-ball in every comp.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
You can be excused not knowing a basic rule if you're fairly new to the game - when we all started I bet we all messed up because we didn't know...
If you've been playing for some time then you have a duty to at least have a reasonable grounding in the rules of the game - if you don't bother then I think you can be labelled a Cheat. You're deliberately avoiding knowing a rule. You're deliberately ignoring rules that could add several shots to your score - if it's deliberate then it's cheating.
There is, of course, a huge difference between knowing the common rules and knowing the totally obscure ones that come out of the closet once a year if they're lucky.
I would suggest that there is a very small percentage of Golfers who know ALL the rules - I know I don't.
But I know the basic ones, the ones that come up time and time again, even a couple of slightly obscure ones that I may never need to implement....But I have a reasonable grounding in the rules.
I am also able to make an error in implementing a rule - taking 2 club lengths instead of 1 for example. 99.99% of the time this will be simply an admin error - I knew the rule but got the penalty wrong. Deciding whether this was deliberate, and thereby hanging the Cheat label around one's neck is difficult.
But deliberately choosing to not know the rule, penalty and implementation I feel is deserving of the title.
If you've been playing for some time then you have a duty to at least have a reasonable grounding in the rules of the game - if you don't bother then I think you can be labelled a Cheat. You're deliberately avoiding knowing a rule. You're deliberately ignoring rules that could add several shots to your score - if it's deliberate then it's cheating.
There is, of course, a huge difference between knowing the common rules and knowing the totally obscure ones that come out of the closet once a year if they're lucky.
I would suggest that there is a very small percentage of Golfers who know ALL the rules - I know I don't.
But I know the basic ones, the ones that come up time and time again, even a couple of slightly obscure ones that I may never need to implement....But I have a reasonable grounding in the rules.
I am also able to make an error in implementing a rule - taking 2 club lengths instead of 1 for example. 99.99% of the time this will be simply an admin error - I knew the rule but got the penalty wrong. Deciding whether this was deliberate, and thereby hanging the Cheat label around one's neck is difficult.
But deliberately choosing to not know the rule, penalty and implementation I feel is deserving of the title.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
There are two cases. 1) Breaking rules 2) Cheating.
1) would be where someone is new and does not have a good comprehension of the rules. If he breaks them he should be told by his playing partners and take the appropriate penalty as ignorance is no exemption.
2) Would be where he knows the rules but deliberately breaks them for advantage. In this case he should be disqualified and reported to the committee for suitable punishment.
If you want to play golf competitively then you have a duty to learn the rules.
1) would be where someone is new and does not have a good comprehension of the rules. If he breaks them he should be told by his playing partners and take the appropriate penalty as ignorance is no exemption.
2) Would be where he knows the rules but deliberately breaks them for advantage. In this case he should be disqualified and reported to the committee for suitable punishment.
If you want to play golf competitively then you have a duty to learn the rules.
chrisd
Major Champion
Spot on!
Funny, but I feel that knowing more rules than most is considered as tantamount to cheating by some?
freddielong
Tour Winner
The big problem with that is if you are playing with people who have an equal disdain for learning the rules then you never learn the rules and you don't really need to as it's everyone else who is playing by the rules that suffer
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
JO, is there no local Rule at your place designating stones in bunkers as moveable obstructions?
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
He didn't say it was a bunker...
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
G
guest100718
Guest
Exactly, if you're just starting out then there is a lot to learn and, but there is no reason for an experienced golfer to not know the most common rules. And ide agree that not making an effort to learn them is cheating.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
This is the problem with a self officiating game and I don't see what you will ever do about it. The Broken rules thread shows that it only takes one person who thinks he knows a rule to tell his mates and all of a sudden it's gospel. I wonder how many people have actually picked up or even own a copy of the rule book?
In the past few years I’ve played with experienced golfer who have played for 10 year plus but still think;
If there’s no water in a staked water hazard it doesn’t count.
You can take a drop where you like from a staked hazard as long as the flag is in line with where you drop it.
If you hit a ball straight into a water hazard off the tee ( our 5th from the back tee you cross the moray firth see wall over the beach) You can drop where it ends up not where it crossed.
It’s a 2 shot penalty for tapping in while holding the flag (not touching the ground)
You can move objects from behind the ball in a hazard (stones on a beach)
If you hit out of bounds, you can drop a ball where it crosses.
It’s a free drop out of the rough if your ball lies near some rabbit droppings.
the mind boggles.
If there’s no water in a staked water hazard it doesn’t count.
You can take a drop where you like from a staked hazard as long as the flag is in line with where you drop it.
If you hit a ball straight into a water hazard off the tee ( our 5th from the back tee you cross the moray firth see wall over the beach) You can drop where it ends up not where it crossed.
It’s a 2 shot penalty for tapping in while holding the flag (not touching the ground)
You can move objects from behind the ball in a hazard (stones on a beach)
If you hit out of bounds, you can drop a ball where it crosses.
It’s a free drop out of the rough if your ball lies near some rabbit droppings.
the mind boggles.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Now I thought that I was stretching it
Weeeell, if no-body knows the rules then no-body will know if anyone is breaking the rules. They'll have a great time...That said - you should not be on the golf course if you do not know my Two Rules of Golf. If you adhere to these you won't break a rule - you will most certainly make things hard for yourself - but you won't go wrong.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Cheating is actively and knowingly doing something that breaks a rule to deceive or to gain an advantage. You might choose to be ignorant of the rules - but EVERYBODY must know my Two Rules as they are so utterly basic and simple. If you strictly adhere to these two rules but know absolutely no other rules - then you won't break a rule. If you break either of my two rules you will know you are cheating - and if you are spotted - others will know you have cheated - or attempted to cheat. But not knowing 'the rules' doesn't make you a cheat.
G
guest100718
Guest
By actively not learning the rules and giving yourself free drops where ever it suits etc, you are cheating.
as for you 2 rules, which one do I use when my opponent plays out of turn in matchplay or my putt hits a flag thats laying behind the hole in the very same match? Making up your own rules is worse than not knowing them and also happens to often.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
None of us - not one - have any excuse for not getting hold of a copy of 'Thre Rules' and studying it diligently. But how many of us have made this positive decision and have done that? But if you haven't do you think you are a cheat because you don't know 'the rules' - of course you don't.
You might suggest that you can only enter a competition (club or otherwise) if you have passed an exam on the rules. Why not? Because unless certified knowledge of the rules is mandated then not knowing the rules CANNOT be deemed to be cheating as clubs would then be condoning cheating - which of course they don't. Not knowing the rules is in itself not cheating. Breaking a rule and notifying a PP of what you have done does not mean you have cheated because you have admitted it. Knowingly breaking a rule and being deceitful over it is cheating.
You might suggest that you can only enter a competition (club or otherwise) if you have passed an exam on the rules. Why not? Because unless certified knowledge of the rules is mandated then not knowing the rules CANNOT be deemed to be cheating as clubs would then be condoning cheating - which of course they don't. Not knowing the rules is in itself not cheating. Breaking a rule and notifying a PP of what you have done does not mean you have cheated because you have admitted it. Knowingly breaking a rule and being deceitful over it is cheating.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I disagree with both your assertions.
Playing out of Turn (and let's say it's Matchplay as there is a possible Penalty) breaks a Rule not covered by your 2. Likewise, tapping down a path on the putting green (other than pitch-marks) is a breach of The Rules that you haven't covered.
There are many circumstances where your 'don't touch your ball until it's in the hole' can be broken without it being a breach of The Rules!
Add the order of play and not improving you line to the hole, an entry about penalties for relief from hazards and another about free relief - and you have the essence of (modern) Golf as covered by the original 13 Rules of 1744. It is to be noted that conditions for 'free relief' must have been interpreted more widely than desired as a subsequent amendment was made tightening that rule - in 1758.
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chrisd
Major Champion
Where we differ is on the question as to what point not bothering to learn the rules of a game, strictly governed by rules, can be deemed to be cheating. If I play with a person I've never played with before and he displays absolutely no basic knowledge of the rules then I have to question how he achieved an official handicap? whether he has won competitions without adding penalties if appropriate? whether it's my job to stand over him for 4 hours and point out each transgression if there are any?
So, in my opinion you have there issues that might lead you to call him a cheat
1 .. he gains a major advantage by not bothering to learn the rules of the game even to a basic level
2 .. he might play with friends like himself, so could win or sign a playing partners card thus defrauding a true winner
3 .. he affects my chances of winning as I have to actually referee him at all times and not concentrate on my own play
learning the 2 rules that you are stressing would only help marginally as he could be 7 minutes late on the tee in a stroke play, having been practising on the course before his start time, with the 15 clubs in his bag ......... etc etc
G
guest100718
Guest
I agree not knowing the rules does not in itself make you a cheat, what I see happen all to often is experienced golfers taking drops near OOB instead of stroke and distance and moving loose impediments in hazards etc and claiming they didint know otherwise, sorry thats not good enough.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
At the simplest form there has to be a rule for it to be breached/ cheated i.e no rules = no cheats
So more rules & decisions being made and changed can only lead to more breaches/cheats (acknowledging the huge diff between the two)
There’s so many cheats in golf simply because there’s so many rules. Golf is designed itself to have cheats!
I think golf’s’ rules are fascinating not least the complexity and variety but they are themselves one of the biggest dangers to the game
When the game and its rules have evolved to the point where the repairing or otherwise of a pitchmark/spikemark/any kind of mark, actually had to be defined, differentiated, penalty assessed and graded and subsequently ruled upon, it needs to be asked why in gawds name are we doing this?
When a decision has to be made whether your balls lies in an animal scrape or a 7 iron scrape, why are we doing this?
And while 2 rules might be cutting it a little too thin it can certainly be done with a lot less than the current ones
It’s simply because so many players seem to want to cheat (in the eyes of their FC’s) that the next rule comes along
If we were to stop penalising 2 & 3 times for every errant shot/lie and golf will be so much simpler, quicker and more enjoyable
If we were to go really radical, imagine preferred lies through the green (inc rough & hazards), leave the flag in the hole, play one at a time when you're ready, maximum one shot penalties, drop at boundary crossing point (even if its nearer the hole, you're already playing a shot more than you intended!) repair anything on your putt line (2 blemish maximum) and a few other simple things and hey presto who can say the winner/losers in their last comp would have been any different if we played along these lines?
Who really thinks I need a penalty stroke if my own ball hits my leg?
On what planet was it ever my intent to purposefully use my own body as part of my shot-making decision to deflect the path of my own ball, resulting in a better outcome than not using my body to deflect the ball!
Clearly somethings gone seriously wrong with my intended shot here, its gonna cost me at least one more shot to recover but no, simply because once upon a time some ejit took their shot and found the ball rebounding back towards them and stopped it going into the clag with their leg... and the FC shouted penalty!!
Now I not only have to have my real-world penalty but I need another penalty stroke awarded to me just to appease the FC's!!
Phew
So more rules & decisions being made and changed can only lead to more breaches/cheats (acknowledging the huge diff between the two)
There’s so many cheats in golf simply because there’s so many rules. Golf is designed itself to have cheats!
I think golf’s’ rules are fascinating not least the complexity and variety but they are themselves one of the biggest dangers to the game
When the game and its rules have evolved to the point where the repairing or otherwise of a pitchmark/spikemark/any kind of mark, actually had to be defined, differentiated, penalty assessed and graded and subsequently ruled upon, it needs to be asked why in gawds name are we doing this?
When a decision has to be made whether your balls lies in an animal scrape or a 7 iron scrape, why are we doing this?
And while 2 rules might be cutting it a little too thin it can certainly be done with a lot less than the current ones
It’s simply because so many players seem to want to cheat (in the eyes of their FC’s) that the next rule comes along
If we were to stop penalising 2 & 3 times for every errant shot/lie and golf will be so much simpler, quicker and more enjoyable
If we were to go really radical, imagine preferred lies through the green (inc rough & hazards), leave the flag in the hole, play one at a time when you're ready, maximum one shot penalties, drop at boundary crossing point (even if its nearer the hole, you're already playing a shot more than you intended!) repair anything on your putt line (2 blemish maximum) and a few other simple things and hey presto who can say the winner/losers in their last comp would have been any different if we played along these lines?
Who really thinks I need a penalty stroke if my own ball hits my leg?
On what planet was it ever my intent to purposefully use my own body as part of my shot-making decision to deflect the path of my own ball, resulting in a better outcome than not using my body to deflect the ball!
Clearly somethings gone seriously wrong with my intended shot here, its gonna cost me at least one more shot to recover but no, simply because once upon a time some ejit took their shot and found the ball rebounding back towards them and stopped it going into the clag with their leg... and the FC shouted penalty!!
Now I not only have to have my real-world penalty but I need another penalty stroke awarded to me just to appease the FC's!!
Phew
G
guest100718
Guest
Steep dowhill putt, you set the ball rolling, leg it down the hill and stand behind the hole, the ball rolls past the hole and "accidently" hits you and stops...... you think that would be ok?
