Any stack and tilt coaches in Scotland?

[virtuocity]

I wondered if it was Ross, great guy and and a fabulous coach. that is who i have been going to as well. He just needs a PA to sort his diary for him, I am sure you know what I mean. How are you enjoying Loudoun ? I played there through the eighties and early nineties and still have many good friends there.

Should have joined years ago. Very friendly club. Always a good laugh and fun winter programme. Great value for money

 

[patricks148]

Not heard anyone talk of S&T in years and there is a reason for that I would suggest!

me either, and an 8 year old thread that had already been resurrected 5 years ago

 

[virtuocity]

Stack & tilt is the commonalities of the greatest players, easy to learn, easy to understand, a 10 point plan, simple.

I agree with most but not all of this but wish you good luck and lots of fun.

 

[garyinderry]

 

[garyinderry]

Looks very S + T to me.

 

[Jacko_G]

Also remember getting a voucher for a golf lesson at Turnberry while in my OTT smother pull phase. Young assistant pga pro looked at my ball flight (low left, going left). He then said I was swinging too far from the inside(!), got me to take the club on the outside and I spent the remainder of the lesson hitting shanks on to the Robert the Bruce course. He then asked if I wanted a special deal for 6 lessons at £185. Nah, you’re alright.

Edit: this is a young lad who would have been better learning and teaching stack and tilt. S&T at least has an understanding of ball flight laws.

Why do you need an understanding of the ball flight laws to play golf? Genuine question.

I stand up and I hit it, if I need to hit a draw I can, if I need to fade it I can. I do this through my own feel and understanding and through trial and error. Bogging your head down in over-analytical (nonsense - my view) information really can be counterproductive. The brain is a wonderful thing and it knows how to swing a golf club, for me and I would suspect millions of others the "quieter" the brain is through the golf shot the better the golf swing.

If I have 150 yards to the flag, slightly down wind I'm pulling out an 8 iron and hitting it. I have no inclination to know the ball flight laws or worry about anything other than hitting the shot and hopefully the green. Incidentally if the same shot is into the wind I may be pulling a 6 iron and playing a slight punch keeping the ball lower. Again I don't need to know or worry about ball flight laws!

 

[skelly0]

I had some lessons in St Andrews, could highly recommend the pro, very good, and with all clubs, even the driver although I changed from a 9 degree to an 11 degree, transformed my game. I was very skeptical but no need, simple, effective instruction and drills, lots of work and the range but well worth it.

 

[Parsaregood]

***Long reply warning***

I started learning golf in 2012. Being scientifically minded, I always liked the idea of Stack and Tilt. It seemed like a 'system-based' approach to learning this game would save me a load of stress and a logical way of approaching a game everyone said would be hard. That's why S&T was a good fit.

I got a lot of good advice on here from Justone, and had my first few lessons with a qualified S&T instructor in Edinburgh. I was on my way. Long story short, like many predicted, I had lots of success (beyond what I expected) with my short irons and struggled with my long irons. Ultimately, I was rubbish at S&T and failed to systematically follow the programme. My main fault was not taking nearly enough videos of myself, and not practicing with purpose. At this time I was running my own business and had tonnes of time on my hands. I went through on average 400 range balls a week and two rounds of golf on top.

I got my first handicap and it came tumbling down. Most of this was due to my hand-eye coordination developing so my ball striking improved. I got the ball moving forward and my putting improved. Down to 18 easy. I started to move away from S&T mainly due to my desire to improve and the fact that there were no S&T instructors close to me. I then went through a few years of going for lessons sporadically with a number of pros, and not really investing my time in trusting what they were saying and not committing to practicing drills. Cue me watching 1M youtube videos for inspiration. I did then develop something of a swing by trial and error. Got down to 12. Then got a proper job and found that I had no reliable swing that I could pull out every year.

My overswing got worse again (S&T swings are really short) and then as a means of addressing the 'fault' of sucking the club inside on the takeaway, I began taking the club on the outside. More lessons, more confusion. All over the place. Huge over the tops, but with a strong grip resulted in quick lefts and huge pulls with nearly every club. 2018 was a nightmare and I decided enough was enough.

In 2019, I went back to basics with a pro who had a camera and a brain. He wanted to tidy up my swing and he is heavily invested on teaching me what he knows, and how to do it. He simplified everything:

1. The takeaway starts with the shoulder, and then there's a cock of the wrist
2. The club needs to shallow before swinging at the ball
3 Hit the frigging ball

There were a few errors along the way including alignment (was aiming a mile right) and continued to fight the overswing throughout the whole year. I did stop the rot (I was shooting 95-110 during 2018). I also had some very good rounds (happily brought the A game to Forest Pines).

Into this year, I've taken my simple learning from last year and added in one further thought- keep the left arm straight (it will bend, but not crumple). The result? 43 points and 42 points off of 3/4 handicap over the past couple of weeks. Feeling better about my game than I ever have. Lets see if it lasts.

TLDR:
So- what have I learned about S&T? It's a brilliant system if you have access to the teaching necessary and commitment to practicing with purpose, using video constantly, and have a knowledge of how to follow the system to the letter. I don't. I am certain it encourages an in-to-out path if done right. Problem was, as a novice, while I felt I was doing it right, I clearly wasn't. I was still too long in the backswing, and swinging over the top to recover.

If you watch my swing now, you'll still see elements of S&T- it's deeply ingrained. If I'm not careful, I suck the club inside with my hands rather than using a 'one piece takeaway'. I don't get off my left side, so have to work hard on set up, particularly with driver. I need to work hard to shallow the club as my head has a nasty habit of getting ahead of the ball and my swing used to get very steep (I put my back out twice in 2018/19 season). What I don't do is wildly sway off the ball like the common slicer. I do have a better understanding of golf swing theory (how much use this is I don't know) and due to the 1000s of balls I've hit in pursuit of a good S&T swing, I can hit the ball from any crap backswing position. Put me in a good position at the top and I can knob the ball around the course ok.

So- if you embrace S&T good for you. But embrace it fully. I really dislike how closed a system this is (like a secret club) and equally the eagerness of those who criticise it. I wouldn't go back to it, for the reasons I stated above. Again, sorry for the long post.

Good that you are enjoying golf again and taking lessons, though you are misinformed by saying the club has to shallow before you hit at the ball. if you pivot correctly on the backswing and your shaft is on plane at the top there really should be no conscious thought of swallowing the club. To do that is to manipulate which is something you want to take out of the swing, in a golf swing you want as few variables possible. With a correct pivot and club path on the backswing, as long as you use the ground correctly and turn properly on the downswing the club should pretty much be on a great path on the way down. the shaft should travel through the upper arm and then get to p6 where its parallel with the target when the shaft is parallel with the ground. There really shouldn't be any need to manipulate

 

[Parsaregood]

Why do you need an understanding of the ball flight laws to play golf? Genuine question.

I stand up and I hit it, if I need to hit a draw I can, if I need to fade it I can. I do this through my own feel and understanding and through trial and error. Bogging your head down in over-analytical (nonsense - my view) information really can be counterproductive. The brain is a wonderful thing and it knows how to swing a golf club, for me and I would suspect millions of others the "quieter" the brain is through the golf shot the better the golf swing.

If I have 150 yards to the flag, slightly down wind I'm pulling out an 8 iron and hitting it. I have no inclination to know the ball flight laws or worry about anything other than hitting the shot and hopefully the green. Incidentally if the same shot is into the wind I may be pulling a 6 iron and playing a slight punch keeping the ball lower. Again I don't need to know or worry about ball flight laws!

While I dont particularly think about the ball flight laws it is useful to know them, if you know them you can pretty much work out what your doing if your hitting bad shots. they also help if you want to hit certain shots if you have the knowledge of what is needed to produce the flight you want

 

[PeterE]

Sean Foley is not a Stack and Tilt Coach!

Though there are certainly similarities/overlaps!

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/difference-between-foley-stack-tilt-golf-swing-1400.html

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2010-09/photos-stack-tilt-sean-foley

Sean Foley is 10p% stack and tilt, 1 million %, learned from plummer and Bennett

 

[Parsaregood]

Sean Foley is 10p% stack and tilt, 1 million %, learned from plummer and Bennett

He incorporates some its philosophy into his teaching but he isnt actually a believer in the method as a whole. Hes like most people, he takes the good as he sees it and puts his own stamp on it

 

[Foxholer]

Sean Foley is 10p% stack and tilt, 1 million %, learned from plummer and Bennett

Twaddle!

FWIW, He's a Sean Foley 'method' (whatever seems most appropriate) coach!

 

[PeterE]

Twaddle!

FWIW, He's a Sean Foley 'method' (whatever seems most appropriate) coach!

What do you consider the right way to play great golf? With movements of the great players or this *** that gets peddled out by most pga pros? Curious.

 

[Slime]

***Long reply warning***

I started learning golf in 2012. Being scientifically minded, I always liked the idea of Stack and Tilt. It seemed like a 'system-based' approach to learning this game would save me a load of stress and a logical way of approaching a game everyone said would be hard. That's why S&T was a good fit.

I got a lot of good advice on here from Justone, and had my first few lessons with a qualified S&T instructor in Edinburgh. I was on my way. Long story short, like many predicted, I had lots of success (beyond what I expected) with my short irons and struggled with my long irons. Ultimately, I was rubbish at S&T and failed to systematically follow the programme. My main fault was not taking nearly enough videos of myself, and not practicing with purpose. At this time I was running my own business and had tonnes of time on my hands. I went through on average 400 range balls a week and two rounds of golf on top.

I got my first handicap and it came tumbling down. Most of this was due to my hand-eye coordination developing so my ball striking improved. I got the ball moving forward and my putting improved. Down to 18 easy. I started to move away from S&T mainly due to my desire to improve and the fact that there were no S&T instructors close to me. I then went through a few years of going for lessons sporadically with a number of pros, and not really investing my time in trusting what they were saying and not committing to practicing drills. Cue me watching 1M youtube videos for inspiration. I did then develop something of a swing by trial and error. Got down to 12. Then got a proper job and found that I had no reliable swing that I could pull out every year.

My overswing got worse again (S&T swings are really short) and then as a means of addressing the 'fault' of sucking the club inside on the takeaway, I began taking the club on the outside. More lessons, more confusion. All over the place. Huge over the tops, but with a strong grip resulted in quick lefts and huge pulls with nearly every club. 2018 was a nightmare and I decided enough was enough.

In 2019, I went back to basics with a pro who had a camera and a brain. He wanted to tidy up my swing and he is heavily invested on teaching me what he knows, and how to do it. He simplified everything:

1. The takeaway starts with the shoulder, and then there's a cock of the wrist
2. The club needs to shallow before swinging at the ball
3 Hit the frigging ball

There were a few errors along the way including alignment (was aiming a mile right) and continued to fight the overswing throughout the whole year. I did stop the rot (I was shooting 95-110 during 2018). I also had some very good rounds (happily brought the A game to Forest Pines).

Into this year, I've taken my simple learning from last year and added in one further thought- keep the left arm straight (it will bend, but not crumple). The result? 43 points and 42 points off of 3/4 handicap over the past couple of weeks. Feeling better about my game than I ever have. Lets see if it lasts.

TLDR:
So- what have I learned about S&T? It's a brilliant system if you have access to the teaching necessary and commitment to practicing with purpose, using video constantly, and have a knowledge of how to follow the system to the letter. I don't. I am certain it encourages an in-to-out path if done right. Problem was, as a novice, while I felt I was doing it right, I clearly wasn't. I was still too long in the backswing, and swinging over the top to recover.

If you watch my swing now, you'll still see elements of S&T- it's deeply ingrained. If I'm not careful, I suck the club inside with my hands rather than using a 'one piece takeaway'. I don't get off my left side, so have to work hard on set up, particularly with driver. I need to work hard to shallow the club as my head has a nasty habit of getting ahead of the ball and my swing used to get very steep (I put my back out twice in 2018/19 season). What I don't do is wildly sway off the ball like the common slicer. I do have a better understanding of golf swing theory (how much use this is I don't know) and due to the 1000s of balls I've hit in pursuit of a good S&T swing, I can hit the ball from any crap backswing position. Put me in a good position at the top and I can knob the ball around the course ok.

So- if you embrace S&T good for you. But embrace it fully. I really dislike how closed a system this is (like a secret club) and equally the eagerness of those who criticise it. I wouldn't go back to it, for the reasons I stated above. Again, sorry for the long post.

How did you manage to cure your overswing, assuming that you have?

 

[Foxholer]

What do you consider the right way to play great golf?...

Be born talented, dedicated and 'Golf smart'!

...With movements of the great players or this *** that gets peddled out by most pga pros?

That's rather harsh on PGA Pros, all of whom are/have been better golfers than me!

As it's impossible for me to have the movements of the great players, I'll satisfy myself with achieving 'playing the best I can, given my limitations'!

Btw. What makes you think that 'most PGA Pros peddle out ***'?

 

[PeterE]

Be born talented, dedicated and 'Golf smart'!

That's rather harsh on PGA Pros, all of whom are/have been better golfers than me!

As it's impossible for me to have the movements of the great players, I'll satisfy myself with achieving 'playing the best I can, given my limitations'!

Btw. What makes you think that 'most PGA Pros peddle out ***'?

Experience, had lessons with PGA pros and Andy Plummer, if one more "pro" says basics, basics, basics I'll give up, listen to Plummer, he talks golf, he knows golf.

 

[bobmac]

What do you consider the right way to play great golf? With movements of the great players or this *** that gets peddled out by most pga pros? Curious.

Do you know what most PGA pros base their teaching on?

 

[Foxholer]

Experience, had lessons with PGA pros and Andy Plummer, if one more "pro" says basics, basics, basics I'll give up, listen to Plummer, he talks golf, he knows golf.

Seems like you found a Pro you can relate to; lucky you! Though potentially expensive!

Btw. How long have you been playing? Do you have a Handicap/Index? If so, what is it?

And to answer Bob's (a (retired?) PGA Pro) question for you...Henny Bogan (a great player) has a lot of influence! Though PGA Pros certainly aren't infallible - until recently, (at least US ones) were taught to teach Ball Flight Laws that were wrong!

And another Btw...Here's an (old) article that backs up my assertion anout Foley NOT teaching S&T. I trust it wasn't Plummer that mislead you! https://www.golfdigest.com/story/does-foley-teach-stack-tilt

 

[PeterE]

Well I hate to disagree but if you pay £30 for a half hour lesson and the pro says you're alignment is out and gets you to "square" whatever that is and you still can't strike it properly that's expensive. Spent many £s on *** teachers. The right knee must remain flexed, load it up, transfer your weight, don't turn the hips and on and on and on.
I was a hcp 12 and after stack and tilt, or more specifically Plummer, now scratch?

 

[PeterE]

Do you know what most PGA pros base their teaching on?

PGA manual