MadAdey
Money List Winner
Can anyone give me a reference to what a cast is please. Not looking for a personal opinion but an actual reference as I am struggling to find one.
Animal Scrapping / burrows
- Thread starter ForeRighty
- Start date
wrighty1874
Journeyman Pro
And too many players want relief from the tree. You have to let them know NPR means nearest, not nicest. I had a situation in a club k/o a couple of years back and eventually caved in to his request, so the 3&2 win was all the more satisfying.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I think the dictionary is the place to look for the definition.
But Worm Casts and Molehills are examples. Worm Casts are, however, defined as Loose Impediments.
I got told by a very 'respectable' player at KGC that he could take relief because his line to the green from a wayward drive had a staked tree in front, I'm aware of the staked tree local rule if it affects your swing but this staked tree was about 2 metres in front and he attempted to tell me that because it was staked, it was protected from a direct hit and he could drop to the side to miss it, I fell about laughing and then he got nasty so I said do want you want but I'm not signing your card!
Foxholer
Blackballed
The simple thing to do in those cases is point out your opinion and let him decide what to do on the basis that you will get the ruling confirmed after the round. There is no reason to refuse to sign his card - unless he refuses to allow you to confirm the Rule. But there's every reason to fall about laughing at the hustle attempt!
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
OED:
noun
A convoluted mass of soil, mud, or sand thrown up by an earthworm or lugworm on the surface after passing through the worm’s body.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/worm-cast
Foxholer
Blackballed
Molehills are also defined as Casts, if not by dictionary, then by Decision 25/23.
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Was just looking up Foxholer's reference to decision 25/23 then got side tracked by some cross references. And now have a question. Is a worm a burrowing animal? (After all, they are animals, and they burrow don't they?) If not, where does it say not? (And I'm not accepting the definition of loose impediment as the answer). Next time I'm standing on a wormcast, I'm having a free drop under rule 25
Colin L
Tour Winner
Of course a worm is a burrowing animal! Its cast is both a loose impediment and an abnormal ground condition. If your ball were up against or even on one, you would not be able to remove it as a loose impediment but you could tai relief from it as an abnormal ground condition.
But standing on a worm cast? Under Rule 25, in what way is the worm cast under your foot interfering with your stance?
You must be a man with a very sensitive soul. (Sorry
)
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Colin L
Tour Winner
Too late for an edit. In line 3, tai should read take.
That's not that black & white is it? If the ball as you state was up against a cast and as you say it is also classed as a loose impediment, then surely you can remove it 'as long as' the ball doesn't move!
I know I'm probably nit picking but with the way these rules are sometimes presented and explained, its healthy to challenge some statements for greater clarification. So, whilst saying that, wouldn't a cast be more a case of abnormal ground conditions only rather than a loose impediment as most casts I've come across are almost 'rooted' to the ground, especially when dry they tend to not just form a 'surface' obstruction!
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Of course a worm is a burrowing animal! Its cast is both a loose impediment and an abnormal ground condition. If your ball were up against or even on one, you would not be able to remove it as a loose impediment but you could tai relief from it as an abnormal ground condition.
But standing on a worm cast? Under Rule 25, in what way is the worm cast under your foot interfering with your stance?
You must be a man with a very sensitive soul. (Sorry
Nope -I'm usually regarded as a very insensitive soul
Just very sensitive feet But on the serious note, if your ball is right up against a wormcast, why can't you move move it as a loose impediment when they are specifically mentioned in the definition of loose impediment. (Ps: I'm aware of decision 23/11 - which is what got me thinking in the first place).
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
Of course a worm is a burrowing animal! Its cast is both a loose impediment and an abnormal ground condition. If your ball were up against or even on one, you would not be able to remove it as a loose impediment but you could tai relief from it as an abnormal ground condition.
But standing on a worm cast? Under Rule 25, in what way is the worm cast under your foot interfering with your stance?
You must be a man with a very sensitive soul. (Sorry
Definition of "burrowing animal" from the R&A... (my bold)
A "burrowing animal" is an animal (other than a worm, insect or the like) that makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog, gopher or salamander.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Nope -I'm usually regarded as a very insensitive soul
But on the serious note, if your ball is right up against a wormcast, why can't you move move it as a loose impediment when they are specifically mentioned in the definition of loose impediment. (Ps: I'm aware of decision 23/11 - which is what got me thinking in the first place).
Apologies if I confused. My LI post (#23) should probably have had an '(also)' before the word 'defined'.
You certainly can treat the cast as an LI and simply move it. But should the ball move, you would be penalised, so probably safer to 'take relief' as you are (also) allowed to do - and you can clean the ball when you do.
I seriously doubt whether worm casts would ever actually 'interfere' with your stance though!
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One Planer
Global Moderator
I asked this a good while back (.... Or similar)
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ition-(Animal-Scraping)-Entitlement-of-relief
http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ition-(Animal-Scraping)-Entitlement-of-relief
I've just the first few answers and it seems to now go against what has been written above in the topic!
We seem to have moved away from the common term 'scrape' because in the rules it doesn't exist, however a 'hole' does, the question now beckons, was that a hole or a scrape and if it was the latter, you shouldn't get relief, or, a bigger question, when does a 'scrape' become a 'hole'? Does the offending burrowing animal have to be able to hide within it or can it be an attempt and abandoned burrow which inadvertently leaves a 'scrape'?
MadAdey
Money List Winner
That is the problem, what do you define as a scrape, a hole and a cast. No where in the R&A rule book can I find where it describes it. If there is an obvious indentation in the ground that has been made by a burrowing animal, is that a hole or not?
Foxholer
Blackballed
If I was playing in a Match, I would certainly allow my opponent relief from either of those conditions in Gareth's previous post - and would expect to be allowed relief myself, though wouldn't get angry if it was not forthcoming! The presence of the tree as the major obstruction would, of course, influence whether relief was allowed though.
That is, indeed, about the point where a 'scrape' does become a 'hole'!
In the case of Fish's Club's LR though, it wouldn't be too much hassle should it only be my stance that was affected - I could manufacture a stance reasonably satisfactorily.
That is, indeed, about the point where a 'scrape' does become a 'hole'!
In the case of Fish's Club's LR though, it wouldn't be too much hassle should it only be my stance that was affected - I could manufacture a stance reasonably satisfactorily.
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One Planer
Global Moderator
If you're taking relief from the scrape/hole, do you not have to take full relief including stance?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Read Fish's post(s) about his (new) Club's LR.
