ForeRighty
Head Pro
If the abnormal ground conditions impacts stance or lie it's free relief by way of 1 club length drop right? I was told yesterday this is only true if fresh droppings are present any truth in this?
Animal Scrapping / burrows
- Thread starter ForeRighty
- Start date
Foxholer
Blackballed
Whoever told you that was talking a load of poo!
A scrape by a burrowing animal is a scrape by a burrowing animal!
However, (Rabbit) droppings will make it easy to determine that it is definitely a Rabbit scrape (Relief) as opposed to scrapes by Squirrels (no Relief). No need to be fresh though.
A scrape by a burrowing animal is a scrape by a burrowing animal!
However, (Rabbit) droppings will make it easy to determine that it is definitely a Rabbit scrape (Relief) as opposed to scrapes by Squirrels (no Relief). No need to be fresh though.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Unless you have the appropriate qualification how does one determine, in the absence of poo, whether said scrape has been caused by a Fox or a Dog....or is it a Rabbit scrape or one made by a Hare..? Of course that assumes you can identify any poo!.....
Colin L
Tour Winner
What's this about "scrapes"? The definition of this particular abnormal ground condition is a hole, cast or runway.
MadAdey
Money List Winner
It is a general term people use where rabbits "scrape" at the ground making either holes or or casts in the ground.
rulefan
Tour Winner
It is a general term players use where an animal has scratched at the ground and the player wants to convince a referee that a scrape is a hole and he should get relief. Not on my watch though.
If you have a scrape on the wing of your car you don't describe it as a hole. A child who falls and scrapes his knee doesn't have a hole in it.
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
1952 Rules used 1947 wording, with added 'but not rabbit scrapes'
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atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
I got into many scrapes in the schoolyard. 
Foxholer
Blackballed
So when they removed those words - in 1956 - did that mean that Rabbit scrapes were included in the 'hole cast or runway'? What's a 'runway' in this context?
@Rulefan How deep does a 'scrape' have to be before it becomes a 'hole'? I saw plenty of what I would call scrapes at the edges of bunkers today. They had obviously been made by some of the many rabbits that were on the course. If you declined my request for relief from any of those, I'd be requesting a second opinion damned fast! They were a couple of inches deep!
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
The text in 1952: If a player's ball lie in or touch casual water, ground under repair, or a hole, cast or runway made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird (but not rabbit scrapes), the player may obtain relief as follows:-
The scrape parenthetical was dropped the next issue.
it has always been my understanding that the hole referred to in the rule is a hole dug for habitation. It may be incomplete but the purpose must be to dig a home, not burial of food or other purpose. But a literal reading does not allow for this interpretation...a hole is a hole.
I don't think a scrape becomes a hole because of its depth. A scrape is a scrape, a hole is a hole.
The scrape parenthetical was dropped the next issue.
it has always been my understanding that the hole referred to in the rule is a hole dug for habitation. It may be incomplete but the purpose must be to dig a home, not burial of food or other purpose. But a literal reading does not allow for this interpretation...a hole is a hole.
I don't think a scrape becomes a hole because of its depth. A scrape is a scrape, a hole is a hole.
chrisd
Major Champion
Is a runway a scrape!
Colin L
Tour Winner
Which, as rulefan will know, was precisely why I questioned the use of "scrape" as a condition eligible for relief.
Going back to the OP's question, if you have a hole in the ground that is like a tunnel (i.e. a roundish hole with a roof) which clearly has been made by an animal to disappear into, you don't need droppings. It helps too if you have local knowledge (e.g. knowing where the rabbit population generally hangs out, or that in one particular part of my course there are badgers). On the negative side, it helps to know that animals do make depressions in the ground to lie in, that birds may scrape away the surface for a dust bath, etc.
I will be refereeing next week on a course I don't know and will be popping in to get a copy of the local rules and to find out if there are any particular things I should know about the course - and that will include whether I might expect rabbits, foxes, badgers, or any other burrowing animals such as haggises and where in particular they hang out and dig holes. If I have time, I'll walk round as well. Local knowledge and familiarity rather than the examination of poo.
rulefan
Tour Winner
That is just a worn track made by animals (typically sheep).
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Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Which, as rulefan will know, was precisely why I questioned the use of "scrape" as a condition eligible for relief.
Going back to the OP's question, if you have a hole in the ground that is like a tunnel (i.e. a roundish hole with a roof) which clearly has been made by an animal to disappear into, you don't need droppings. It helps too if you have local knowledge (e.g. knowing where the rabbit population generally hangs out, or that in one particular part of my course there are badgers). On the negative side, it helps to know that animals do make depressions in the ground to lie in, that birds may scrape away the surface for a dust bath, etc.
I will be refereeing next week on a course I don't know and will be popping in to get a copy of the local rules and to find out if there are any particular things I should know about the course - and that will include whether I might expect rabbits, foxes, badgers, or any other burrowing animals such as haggises and where in particular they hang out and dig holes. If I have time, I'll walk round as well. Local knowledge and familiarity rather than the examination of poo.
Its not just Rules then, you even know the correct plural for Haggis !
Colin L
Tour Winner
But the refereeing challenge with haggises is that only certain types are burrowing animals. You have to know your sub-species as well. 
Foxholer
Blackballed
:rofl:But the refereeing challenge with haggises is that only certain types are burrowing animals. You have to know your sub-species as well.
Never heard it termed anything but 'track' so something new. I trust a sheep-track/runway would not qualify for relief, but one by a badger would!
And what about my 'scrapes' at the edges of bunkers?
rulefan
Tour Winner
This has really enlightened me, the lack of knowledge at my old club from so-called seasoned players who have taken relief from a 'scrape', which is a word or term not used anywhere in the R&A Rules as I just did a search, is unbelievable.
I've seen players ask for relief near trees and get it for what looks no different to that of a divot with a few drops of poo nearby, hence the term 'scrape'.
Are we saying, and as I have just read to the best of my ability on the R&A site, that relief should only be given like in the picture it shows, being a 'hole' and anything that is simply a 'scrape' gets the 2 finger salute :smirk:
I've seen players ask for relief near trees and get it for what looks no different to that of a divot with a few drops of poo nearby, hence the term 'scrape'.
Are we saying, and as I have just read to the best of my ability on the R&A site, that relief should only be given like in the picture it shows, being a 'hole' and anything that is simply a 'scrape' gets the 2 finger salute :smirk:
Foxholer
Blackballed
That's what the definition says
You still haven't answered my question about the 2+ inch deep 'rabbit scrapes' at the edge of bunkers!
Colin? AF?
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
I'm an old common law lawyer, facts are everything. Without seeing a case it is hard. My first thought is it would just be a deep scrape, not a hole. There may be a point where a scrape becomes a hole but it should be decided on a case by case basis.
