Alterations to WHS?

[D-S]

For a typical let’s say 6000 yard course what is the highest CR it could have and what is the lowest?

It would be interesting to know how much obstacles, terrain, width of fairway, size of greens, depth and placement of bunkers etc.etc. could contribute to CR.

 

[wjemather]

This is precisely the attitude that I was referring to - the refusal to acknowledge that length is not the be-all and end-all.

I am not the one rejecting the evidence; and no-one claims length is all there is, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[cliveb]

I am not the one rejecting the evidence; and no-one claims length is all there is, quite the opposite in fact.

This seems at odds with your earlier statement: "The overwhelming influence on scoring ability is length - and always will be. Other factors are minor in comparison".
The terms "overwhelming" and "minor" must mean something different to you than they do to me.

 

[Backsticks]

Would there be much difference between a course rating made on the ground, and one made with Google earth ? The length dominates. Key features are visible on Google earth, and since minor, presumably can be very closely assessed. So the major distance perfecgtly accurately, and the features element quite accurately, must add up to a very good rating.

 

[wjemather]

Would there be much difference between a course rating made on the ground, and one made with Google earth ? The length dominates. Key features are visible on Google earth, and since minor, presumably can be very closely assessed. So the major distance perfecgtly accurately, and the features element quite accurately, must add up to a very good rating.

There are many measurements and observations cannot be taken using Google Earth, and most of those that can would not be very accurate.

While length is the dominant factor, there could easily be a noticeable difference in both CR and Slope if any of these other factors vary significantly from the average/norm (if attempting to use GE).

 

[Backsticks]

I guess the correlation coefficient of length versus CR is easy assembled from public information, which would indicate how minor or not, the minor component of course features is. And from that, the variation in accuracy of a simple google assessment.

 

[wjemather]

This seems at odds with your earlier statement: "The overwhelming influence on scoring ability is length - and always will be. Other factors are minor in comparison".
The terms "overwhelming" and "minor" must mean something different to you than they do to me.

Overwhelming seems like a reasonable descriptive of something that contributes over 68 out of a rating of about 71 (a typical ~6000 yard course with average obstacles); and minor also seems reasonable for all the other factors that combined only contribute about 3. Those descriptives are also entirely consistent with saying that length is not the only factor.

 

[D-S]

Overwhelming seems like a reasonable descriptive of something that contributes over 68 out of a rating of about 71 (a typical ~6000 yard course with average obstacles); and minor also seems reasonable for all the other factors that combined only contribute about 3. Those descriptives are also entirely consistent with saying that length is not the only factor.

So is the lowest a 6000 yard course can be (or is) is 68 and the highest 71?

 

[wjemather]

So is the lowest a 6000 yard course can be (or is) is 68 and the highest 71?

No, it can be slightly lower and significantly higher (near 80) but the extremes probably wouldn't be much fun to play.

 

[D-S]

No, it can be slightly lower and significantly higher (near 80) but the extremes probably wouldn't be much fun to play.

Interesting, maybe a CR per yard number might be an interesting way of measuring the ‘difficulty’ of a course.

 

[wjemather]

Interesting, maybe a CR per yard number might be an interesting way of measuring the ‘difficulty’ of a course.

Should also note that there is a (usually small) difference between the measured yardage (on the card) and the effective yardage (used for rating) due to elevation changes, layups, roll, wind, etc.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Interesting, maybe a CR per yard number might be an interesting way of measuring the ‘difficulty’ of a course.

That's essentially what it is now

 

[rulefan]

There is a correlation in most people's minds that length makes a large contribution to a course's difficulty. Par is a good example. The longer a hole the more likely that more strokes will be taken. The hole par and therefore the course par will increase. The perception is the higher the par the more difficult the course.
The hole par is arbritrary, determined by the club alone.
The difference re Course Rating are the additional factors which are based on the specified tables in the rating manual and are applied to all courses around the world.

Roll – How far a ball will roll on fairways with various surface conditions/contouring
Dogleg – Where the dogleg design of a hole does not allow a full tee shot to be played
Wind – Average wind strength and direction
Elevation – Difference in elevation between the tee and green and approach shots to the green
Forced Lay-up – Where a player is forced to play short of obstacles that cross the fairway

The 10 obstacle factors that are used to determine the playing difficulty of a golf course are:

Topography – Nature of the stance and lie within each landing zone and approach shot elevation to the green
Fairway – The width of fairway landing zones, hole length and nearby obstacles – trees, hazards and punitive rough
Green Target – Evaluation of hitting the green with the approach shot, visibility and nature of the green surface
Recoverability and Rough – The difficulty of recovery if the tee shot landing zones and/or the green is missed
Bunkers – Size and depth of bunkers and their proximity to landing zones and greens
Crossing Obstacle – Shot length to safely carry water, penalty areas, OB or extreme rough.
Lateral Obstacle – Takes account of the distance of obstacles from the centre of fairways and greens.
Trees – Size and density, proximity to centre of landing zones/greens, shot length to target areas, recovery difficulty
Green Surface – Putting difficulty on a green – green speeds, surface contours and tiers
Psychological – Evaluation of the cumulative effect of the other nine obstacle factors

If a club disagrees with the rating given, they may appeal to the rating authority. I am not personally aware of any.

 

[clubchamp98]

There is a correlation in most people's minds that length makes a large contribution to a course's difficulty. Par is a good example. The longer a hole the more likely that more strokes will be taken. The hole par and therefore the course par will increase. The perception is the higher the par the more difficult the course.

Is there a calc for the type of grass ?
currently we are playing in Florida and a 6300 yd course is playing like 7000yds mainly due to the Bermuda grass.

 

[wjemather]

Is there a calc for the type of grass ?
currently we are playing in Florida and a 6300 yd course is playing like 7000yds mainly due to the Bermuda grass.

Not directly, but firmness/softness and roll are accounted for.

 

[clubchamp98]

Not directly, but firmness/softness and roll are accounted for.

Thanks.
I did notice that most courses seem to be rated higher than my home course.
maybe this is the reason.
average 6300 course is 135 as you don’t get much roll

 

[rulefan]

Not directly, but firmness/softness and roll are accounted for.

Just to expand a bit, roll would be affected by cut length and type of grass.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks.
I did notice that most courses seem to be rated higher than my home course.
maybe this is the reason.
average 6300 course is 135 as you don’t get much roll

Is 135 the slope? That is pretty high. Remember, that is only the relative difficulty for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player. It is not an actual difficulty measure

I would expect 6300 would very approximately have a CR of 69/70ish

 

[D-S]

Heavily watered bermuda grass courses tend to play very long in the US. There is little or no roll and the greens then to have slight slopes in front of them where the water drains off, these tend to be soft and the ball can never land short of the putting surface. This means that virtually all the golf is played through the air. I know mates who play 6400 courses in the UK always go for 6000 or below tees in the US as they struggle on similar yardage US/UK courses.

 

[clubchamp98]

Heavily watered bermuda grass courses tend to play very long in the US. There is little or no roll and the greens then to have slight slopes in front of them where the water drains off, these tend to be soft and the ball can never land short of the putting surface. This means that virtually all the golf is played through the air. I know mates who play 6400 courses in the UK always go for 6000 or below tees in the US as they struggle on similar yardage US/UK courses.

Yes we have found that out over the years.
for me as a 6hc it’s the chipping, Bermuda is so soft and the ball just sinks, or even worse sits right on top of it so it’s like hitting a wedge off a tee set for driver.