Accidentally playing from GUR.

[xreyuk]

Playing a social round today and one of our guys did this. On a par 5

Drove into, no Accidentally played from GUR, hit into the trees, went to play a provisional and realised it was GUR. Dropped the provisional outside the GUR and played from there and never found original ball. Took two more shots with provisional.

What should be the correct procedure on this hole, and what would the score be?

 

[jim8flog]

Firstly it would depend upon whether the GUR is a No Play Zone or not. If it was the player has incurred a 2 shot penalty for failing to drop outside of the GUR which must be added regardless of what happens next

Unless the GUR is marked up as such or there is local rule prohibiting pay from GUR then a player may play from an area marked as GUR.

If it was a NPZ the player has carried out the correct procedure by dropping outside of the GUR.

 

[Colin L]

The OP says nothing about a No Play Zone and so I'm taking the situation as described. He played his ball as it lay in the GUR which is legtimate. Because he might have lost his ball in the tress he played a provisional ball, which is legitimate. He did not, however, play the provisional ball from where he played his original one and so he played from a wrong place. His provisional ball now has a general penalty attached to it which will be applied if he can't find his original and has to continue with the provisional, or will disappear if he finds his original in time and abandons the provisional.

Had he wished to take advantage of free relief from the GUR for his provisional ball, he should have dropped his ball in the right place first and then taken relief relative to where it lay after the drop.

 

[Kennysarmy]

The OP says nothing about a No Play Zone and so I'm taking the situation as described. He played his ball as it lay in the GUR which is legtimate. Because he might have lost his ball in the tress he played a provisional ball, which is legitimate. He did not, however, play the provisional ball from where he played his original one and so he played from a wrong place. His provisional ball now has a general penalty attached to it which will be applied if he can't find his original and has to continue with the provisional, or will disappear if he finds his original in time and abandons the provisional.

Had he wished to take advantage of free relief from the GUR for his provisional ball, he should have dropped his ball in the right place first and then taken relief relative to where it lay after the drop.

Surely the fact that it was GUR meant he did not have to play from the original place and could indeed drop outside the GUR at the nearest point of relief ?

 

[Colin L]

Surely the fact that it was GUR meant he did not have to play from the original place and could indeed drop outside the GUR at the nearest point of relief ?

Of course he had the option in the first place of playing his ball as it lay in the GUR or taking relief, but having decided on playing the original from the GUR a provisional ball needs to be played from the same place. Remember that a provisional ball is stroke and distance in advance - just in case it's needed. The player should have dropped his provisional ball in the correct relief area using the spot where the original ball lay as his reference point. It is then in play and he could choose to take GUR relief.

Bear in mind that after dropping it, his provisional ball could be lying up to a club-length away from where the original had been and that could mean the nearest point of complete relief would be different from what it would have been had he taken relief from where his original lay. It's possible that the difference could even be opposite sides of the GUR. In my view you have to do these things in sequence.

 

[xreyuk]

Thanks guys.

There is a local rule on the card saying that GUR is a compulsory drop.

So if he played out of the GUR, then needed to play another, would have have to drop outside the GUR or in GUR it was played from?

So I see this is as. 1 shot into GUR, 2 shot penalty for playing from GUR, 1 shot drop inside GUR, take relief, playing 5 from just outside GUR?

Is this correct?

 

[jim8flog]

If the player plays from out of the GUR when the drop is compulsory the situation is more complicated than just a 2 shot penalty see below. However in the situation with the result you describe it would be just a 2 shot penalty in the first instance.

1 shot into to GUR
1 shot for stroke from GUR
2 Shot penalty
Stroke and distance for lost ball
So playing 6 with next stroke just outside of the GUR

For future reference

Extract of Rule 14.7

Playing from Wrong Place

a. Place from Where Ball Must Be Played

b. How to Complete a Hole after Playing from Wrong Place in Stroke Play

(1) Player Must Decide Whether to Play Out Hole with Ball Played from Wrong Place or to Correct the Mistake by Playing from Right Place. What a player does next depends on whether it was a serious breach – that is, whether the player could have gained a significant advantage by playing from a wrong place:

• Not a Serious Breach. The player must play out the hole with the ball played from a wrong place, without correcting the mistake.

• Serious Breach.

 The player must correct the mistake by playing out the hole with a ball played from a right place under the Rules.
 If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning his or her scorecard, the player is disqualified.

 

[xreyuk]

Thanks for the explanation.

If the GUR wasn't a compulsory drop, they would hit out of GUR, drop provisional, are they then allowed to take relief from the GUR with the provisional ball, or must they play it from within the GUR?

 

[rulie]

If the ball lies in GUR, even after dropping in the GUR, they are entitled to free relief.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for the explanation.

If the GUR wasn't a compulsory drop, they would hit out of GUR, drop provisional, are they then allowed to take relief from the GUR with the provisional ball, or must they play it from within the GUR?

Thanks for the ex#planation.

If the GUR wasn't a compulsory drop, they would hit out of GUR, drop provisional, are they then allowed to take relief from the GUR with the provisional ball, or must they play it from within the GUR?

See post #3

 

[Barrie J]

Of course he had the option in the first place of playing his ball as it lay in the GUR or taking relief, but having decided on playing the original from the GUR a provisional ball needs to be played from the same place. Remember that a provisional ball is stroke and distance in advance - just in case it's needed. The player should have dropped his provisional ball in the correct relief area using the spot where the original ball lay as his reference point. It is then in play and he could choose to take GUR relief.

An interesting question whether the player may take free relief from the GUR after dropping a ball in the GUR with the intent of playing it as a provisional. Firstly the dropped ball is not in play. The definition of a provisional ball states that it is not the ball in play unless it becomes the ball in play under 18.3c. It is not even a provisional until it is played, i.e struck (first paragraph of 18.3a). For it to become a provisional it must be struck from where the previous stroke was made (rule 14.6) Therefore, IMO, it seems unlikely that free relief would be allowed.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for noticing that I hadn't described the provisional ball as being provisionally in play. It is one of the 2 stroke play situations in which you can legitimately be playing two balls.

The provisional ball is in every respect what you would do under stroke and distance if your ball was lost or out of bounds but to save time it is provisionally played in advance of knowing whether that is the case. The way in which you start playing a provisional replicates how you would put a ball into play under stroke and distance which means if from the teeing area it is not provisionally in play until a stroke is made or, if from anywhere else , it is provisionally in play when dropped. That means in the OP's situation that you may take relief from the GUR just as would be entitled to do if actually putting a ball in play under stroke and distance.

If it becomes the ball in play, everything done with the provisional ball up to that point forms part of your score - strokes made with it and any penalties accrued.

 

[rulefan]

It is not even a provisional until it is played, i.e struck (first paragraph of 18.3a). For it to become a provisional it must be struck from where the previous stroke was made (rule 14.6)

Where exactly does it say that?

 

[chrisd]

Where exactly does it say that?

I cant see it either

 

[Colin L]

I cant see it either

There's a reason for that.

 

[Barrie J]

Where exactly does it say that?

The opening paragraph to 18.3a reads:

At any time, a player may take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6).

In other parts of the same rule, playing means to strike. For instance, 18.3c(1) reads, in part:

The player may continue to play the provisional ball without it losing its status as a provisional ball so long as it is played from a spot that is the same distance or farther from the hole than where the original ball is estimated to be.

 

[Colin L]

The opening paragraph to 18.1 reads:



In other parts of the same rule, playing means to strike. For instance, 18.3c(1) reads, in part:

Barrie,
It's as I said above. Your ball is in play after you make a stroke at it if in the teeing area or after you have dropped it elsewhere on the course. See Rule 14.4:

14.4
When Player’s Ball is Back in Play after Original Ball Was Out of Play
When a player’s ball in play is lifted from the course or is lost or out of bounds, the ball is no longer in play.
The player has a ball in play again only when he or she:

• Plays the original ball or another ball from the teeing area, or
• Replaces, drops or places the original ball or another ball on the course with the intent for that ball to be in play.

 

[Barrie J]

Barrie,
It's as I said above. Your ball is in play after you make a stroke at it if in the teeing area or after you have dropped it elsewhere on the course. See Rule 14.4:

14.4
When Player’s Ball is Back in Play after Original Ball Was Out of Play
When a player’s ball in play is lifted from the course or is lost or out of bounds, the ball is no longer in play.
The player has a ball in play again only when he or she:

• Plays the original ball or another ball from the teeing area, or
• Replaces, drops or places the original ball or another ball on the course with the intent for that ball to be in play.

But the ball in play, the original ball, has not been lifted or is not lost or out of bounds, it just might be lost or out of bounds. 14.4, from the heading, applies when the original ball is out of play.

 

[duncan mackie]

But the ball in play, the original ball, has not been lifted or is not lost or out of bounds, it just might be lost or out of bounds. 14.4, from the heading, applies when the original ball is out of play.

Schrodinger moment here....if at the time of dropping you don't know if the original ball is lost, or OOB, what is the status of a ball dropped under 18.3?
I would suggest that it's provisionally in play.
If you took a practice swing and moved it you will be penalised - if it wasnt in play you wouldn't - so by that reverse logic it is 'in play' for the purpose of this debate.
Having dropped the ball you are entitled to proceed as the rules permit for the situation you find yourself in. This would include numerous relief options, one of which is being raised here in relation to GUR. All fine - and none require the ball to be 'struck' (?).

 

[Colin L]

But the ball in play, the original ball, has not been lifted or is not lost or out of bounds, it just might be lost or out of bounds. 14.4, from the heading, applies when the original ball is out of play.

Remember that a provisional ball is in every respect the ball that will be in play under stroke and distance should the original be lost or out of bounds. It’s just brought forward in time and played provisionally to save time. To play a provisional properly you have to follow the same rules as you would if you were proceeding under stroke and distance after your original was lost or known to have gone out of bounds. 14.4 applies to the provisional ball as much as to a substituted ball because the provisional could later become the ball in play. The provisional is the understudy waiting in the wings: it has to know the same lines as the principal in case it has to take over.